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RE: stds-80220-requirements: 802.1q/p



Title: Message
Your response seems to suggest that flexibility in this area desirable, and on that point, I strongly agree. I also agree that requirements must be worded carefully. My concern with the proposed text is that it *reduces* flexibility by specifically mandating particular solutions to a problem (it explicitly puts network-layer awareness/assumptions in a link-layer specification). I find this to be needless over-specification. All that is needed in the MAC layer to support any of the proposed approaches to wholesale/retail separation (or anything else) is the equivalent of a "type" field or "next header" field such that various types of payloads with different formats can be multiplexed/demultiplexed over the air link. Then the MAC-layer payload could carry IP, Bluetooth, ATM, PPP, IP w/ 802.1Q tagging etc., as well as any other or future payload formats that provide some yet unforeseen capability.
 
So, I would suggest that if a requirement on this issue is to be included in the document, that it should simply state that the system should include a capability to enable *multi-protocol* support. Specifically, the air link should be capable of multiplexing/demultiplexing payloads from different higher layer protocols, where each such protocol may have a unique formatting of the MAC layer payload.
 
This is a necessary (based on commercial requirements) and sufficient (generic technical solution) requirement.
 
-Vince
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-80220-requirements@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-80220-requirements@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Wallace, Stewart J
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 8:12 PM
To: stds-80220-requirements@ieee.org
Subject: RE: stds-80220-requirements: 802.1q/p

Folks,
 
In my view, carefully wording the Requirements Document text in such a way as to allow any or all of these L2 switching mechanisms - such that vendors may then make a commercial/competitive decision in regard to the extent of compliance by their particular product - would certainly be preferred by those network operators intending to offer wholesale carriage services, and those wishing to offer self-provisioning to end users.  I tend to agree quite strongly with Dave's suggestions.

regards

Stewart J Wallace
Technical Regulatory Manager
Radiocommunications & Wireless Networks
Telstra Regulatory Directorate
Tel: (+61 3) 8627 8053
Fax: (+61 3) 9614 0670

-----Original Message-----
From: Mcginniss, Dave S [NTK] [mailto:david.s.mcginniss@mail.sprint.com]
Sent: Saturday, 21 February 2004 1:33 AM
To: Park Vincent; Branislav Meandzija
Cc: stds-802-mobility@ieee.org
Subject: RE: stds-802-mobility: RE: stds-80220-requirements: 802.1q/p

You are all taking the position that this should not be a requirement because it restricts the architecture when in fact it does just the opposite.  It offers the possibility of another architecture support for operators and precludes nothing.  I do note that this is coming from representatives of two vendors.  Do any other operators have an opinion on this subject   Support for these IEEE standards offer enhanced flexibility and enhance the use of other IEEE work for those that choose to implement an l2 alternative.  This could also be used to extend a micro mobility domain.  

 

 

David S. McGinniss

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Sprint Broadband Wireless Technology Development Group

(630) 926-3184 david.s.mcginniss@mail.sprint.com

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Park Vincent [mailto:Park@flarion.com]
Sent:
Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:36 PM
To: Branislav Meandzija; Mcginniss, Dave S [NTK]
Cc: stds-802-mobility@ieee.org
Subject: RE: stds-802-mobility: RE: stds-80220-requirements: 802.1q/p

 

Hi all,

 

Sorry for the delayed response...just getting caught up on some backlogged emails.

 

I actually think this requirement should NOT be included (primarily, because it restricts the architecture as the editor's note suggests).

 

There are presently many alternative solutions to support wholesale/retail separation in IP networks and alternative solutions will continue to emerge. Several approaches do not require any L2 switching support. Additionally, most approaches can be viewed as being accomplished solely with higher layer mechanisms (i.e., using signaling and header fields of packets that are effectively opaquely carried as link layer payload). In my opinion, including a requirement for L2 switching and/or tagging (especially with a specific list of approaches) is overly restrictive. I also think that this type of requirement is inappropriate, given that the backhaul technology is essentially out of scope. Depending on the choice of backhaul technology "L2 switching" may make zero sense.

 

-Vince

 

Vincent D. Park
park@flarion.com

Flarion Technologies Inc.
Bedminster One
135 Route 202/206 South
Bedminster NJ 07921

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-802-mobility@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-802-mobility@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Branislav Meandzija
Sent:
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:51 AM
To: Mcginniss, Dave S [NTK]
Cc: stds-802-mobility@ieee.org
Subject: stds-802-mobility: RE: stds-80220-requirements: 802.1q/p

 

I think we need to capture what you are saying in the requirement itself as otherwise it will be too easy to misinterpret. I am appending what I believe is you are saying. That is acceptable to us.

 

Branislav

-----------------------------------

PROPOSED NEW TEXT

 

4.5.2 Layer 2 Switching

 

802.1q tagging, PPP, or MPLS must be supported by the system (such that network egress traffic can be switched by a L2 device to the appropriate L2 termination device for managing backbone traffic or distinguishing traffic for wholesale partners in a wholesale environment).

-----------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: Mcginniss, Dave S [NTK] [mailto:david.s.mcginniss@mail.sprint.com]
Sent:
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 6:30 AM
To: Branislav Meandzija
Cc: stds-802-mobility@ieee.org
Subject: RE: stds-80220-requirements: 802.1q/p

I don’t understand your argument.  Support of these 802 standards do exactly what you want offer the flexibility to support an architecture other than PPP or MPLS.  I am not saying that it will be the only mechanism to do so.  In fact MPLS would in fact be preferred in current designs I have been evaluating.  If there is no support for these standards it precludes the use for purpose I have offered as reasons for their usage.  I just feel support for these 802 standards should not be overlooked by 802.20.

 

David S. McGinniss

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Sprint Broadband Wireless Technology Development Group

(630) 926-3184 david.s.mcginniss@mail.sprint.com

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Branislav Meandzija [mailto:bran@arraycomm.com]
Sent:
Tuesday, February 17, 2004 8:10 PM
To: Mcginniss, Dave S [NTK]
Subject: RE: stds-80220-requirements: 802.1q/p

 

Hi Dave,

 

The current requirements document text reads:

----------

802.1Q tagging must be supported by the system (such that network egress traffic can be switched by a L2 device to the appropriate L2 termination device for managing backbone traffic or distinguishing traffic for wholesale partners in a wholesale environment).

-----------

Which is even way more in conflict with the "agnostic network architecture" argument than even your proposal which I am appending below. I am sure you understand our argument that using something like PPP (as we are) or MPLS would do the job just as well. How can we put this one to rest without mandating a network architecture solution? I understand Sprint really has decided on 802.1q tagging, but that is something you guys can specify in an RFI fro a particular deployment. Others prefer PPP based solutions. So, it would really be unfair and unreasonable for the standard to eliminate those.

 

Branislav

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stds-80220-requirements@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-80220-requirements@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Mcginniss, Dave S [GMG]
Sent:
Monday, November 17, 2003 8:08 AM
To: stds-80220-requirements@ieee.org
Subject: stds-80220-requirements: 802.1q/p

4.5.2       802.1Q/P tagging (open)

Editors Note: This section is proposed for deletion because this is tied a specific network architecture.

Current text

[802.1Q tagging must be supported by the system (such that network egress traffic can be switched by a L2 device to the appropriate L2 termination device for managing backbone traffic or distinguishing traffic for wholesale partners in a wholesale environment).]

 

Proposed Text

802.1q tagging should be supported by the 802.20 system or some other mechanism (i.e. policy routing). Tagging will support the L2 switching such that network egress traffic can be switched by a L2 device to the appropriate L2 termination device for managing backbone traffic or distinguishing traffic for wholesale partners in a wholesale environment. Tagging can also be used to facilitate a retail captive portal service model.  By tagging traffic from a mobile terminal that is unknown (i.e. mobile terminal is un-provisioned) it can be switched at L2 to a system enabling a self provisioning system model.  By tagging control and management traffic it to can be switched and separated as close to the base station as possible. All of these can be accomplished at a higher layer but are simpler to implement if 802.1Q tagging is supported. 

802.1p

The 802.1Q standard specifies that tags be appended to a MAC frame. The VLAN tag carries VLAN information. The VLAN tag has two parts: The VLAN ID (12-bit) and Prioritization (3-bit). The 802.1P implementation defines the prioritization field. 802.1p defines a 32-bit tag header that is inserted after a frame's normal destination and source address header info. Switches, routers, servers, desktop systems, mobile terminals, or base stations can set these priority bits.  Switches and routers can prioritize traffic based on these tags.

Rational

By driving these functions to layer 2 a provider can build a flatter network supporting simple IP handoff over a larger 802.20 coverage area.  These functions can be supported in other ways at a higher layer but are most efficiently handled at layer 2.  The evaluation criteria group should report support for tagging so that the 802.20 group can factor support in the selection process.

 

 

David S. McGinniss

Sprint Broadband Wireless Group

Principal Engineer II

(630) 926-3184
david.s.mcginniss@mail.sprint.com