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RE: [EFM] Re: OAM - To side-band or not to side-band



See attached for deterministic reply.

Meir

-----Original Message-----
From: Roy Bynum [mailto:rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 3:07 PM
To: mattsquire@xxxxxxx
Cc: Bob Barrett; Geoff Thompson; Tony Jeffree; stds-802-3-efm
Subject: Re: [EFM] Re: OAM - To side-band or not to side-band



Matt,

When we were working on 10GbE, the issue of definition of
"deterministic" 
came up.  I could not find it in any dictionary, including an unabridged

Webster.  I did find a definition of "deterministic at 
http://hissa.nist.gov/dads/HTML/deterministc.html.  I also found a 
definition of "non-deterministic" at 
http://hissa.nist.gov/dads/HTML/nondeterministic.html.  The difference 
between the two definitions  that can be related to this discussion is 
whether there is single predetermined or multiple non-predetermined
delays 
that can be returned.  From your comment about a fixing a minimum and 
maximum , which indicates that at any one instant there are multiple 
non-predetermine delays that can be returned, is actually
non-deterministic.

Thank you,
Roy Bynum


At 01:12 PM 1/27/2002 -0500, Matt Squire wrote:

>According to Webster, deterministic comes from determine which means
'to
>fix the boundaries.'  Hence, setting a minimum and maximum is quite
>deterministic.
>
>Nothing we could do would operate on 'any specific granular time
frame',
>for a time frame can always be chosen which is less than 1-bit time.  I
>know you have time frames you find desirable - other folk have other
>views on desirable time frames.   Time frame granularity is certinly
one
>of the differentiators between the OAM transport proposals and should
be
>considered by folks when making their evaulations of the transport
>proposals.
>
>I'm completely unclear on what we approach 802.3ah OAM will not be
>taking.
>
>Roy Bynum wrote:
> >
> > Matt,
> >
> > The moment that you say minimum and maximums, you have said that it
is not
> > deterministic from the service provider viewpoint for any kind of
service
> > than "Internet" related.  Deterministic means that at any   specific
> > granular time frame, a specific level of performance monitoring is
> > available.  On today's infrastructure, where it is managed at all,
that
> > time frame is measured in microseconds.  Where infrastructure is not
> > managed, the facility is managed through the services using  SNMP
embedded
> > in the customer revenue stream.  Sometimes ATM is used to create an
> > dedicated channel at L2 for the SNMP, but it is still embedded as
part of
> > the service revenue stream.  I think that we have agreed that the
802.3ah
> > OAM will not be taking that approach.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Roy Bynum
> >
> > At 12:09 PM 1/27/2002 -0500, Matt Squire wrote:
> >
> > >All of the OAM transport proposals are completely contained within
802.3
> > >and do not rely on implementation specifics.  Also, all of the
transport
> > >proposals have easily derivable deterministic minimum and maximum
> > >performance (bps).
> > >
> > >Bob Barrett wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Gentlemen
> > > >
> > > > I would assert that anything we define for OAM transport should
also be
> > > self
> > > > contained within 802.3 and not rely on implementation specifics
in 
> order to
> > > > work deterministically.
> > > >
> > > > Non-deterministic management transport will not meet the broad
market
> > > > acceptance criterion imho.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >

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