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Re: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion



Geoff, 

 

I do not disagree with you, but the scope of this project is not to fix
anything in 802.3, or change EPON for that matter. That would be a task for
maintenance or revision projects. It so happens that revision is done. So
while you're right in that there is inconsistency in terminology, it is not
EPoC task to fix it in EPON, thus we just have to live it with for the time
being, making sure that what we add is free of such artifacts. 

 

Marek

 

From: Geoff Thompson [mailto:thompson@xxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 06:06
To: Marek Hajduczenia
Cc: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

Marek-
Matt is correct and you are incorrect.
We are writing an amendment to the 802.3 Ethernet standard not an amendment
to EPON.
If EPON terminology has flaws with respect to the rest of the Ethernet
standard then they should get fixed.
(This situation "could" be different.  There is an oustanding DISAPPROVE
vote on the current 802.3 revision project to split off the
point-to-multipoint portions of the standard into a separate standard within
the 802.3 family.)

Best regards,
    Geoff

On 208//12 7:17 PM, Marek Hajduczenia wrote: 

Matt, 

 

You're 101% correct. We will be developing an amendment for EPoC and not a
new spec, so some of the discussion, while technically correct, might be
moot 

 

Marek

 

From: Matthew Schmitt [mailto:m.schmitt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 03:12
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but if memory serves we won't be
writing an EPoC spec; rather, we'll be generating amendments to the Ethernet
spec. If so, rather than having to rewrite how a term is used throughout the
entire existing spec (even if we could get away with it), might it be a good
idea to use existing terms as they're already used? 

 

Matt


On Aug 20, 2012, at 7:17 PM, "Jain, Rajeev" <rajeevj@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Thanks Hal. 

 

I dare say the "Bandwidth" for bit rate is a  marketing term that has crept
in over the years - salesmen in Best Buy can more easily convince the
consumers they need "more bandwidth" to sell a higher speed router than
"higher bit rate". "Bandwidth" has a feel good consumerism sound to it J

 

Some of us are also old enough to recall  the similar confusion between baud
rate and bit rate in the good old dial-up modem days. "Baud" was carried
over from days of telegraph and it took a while with internet access to move
from  baud to bit rate - and then we got that all mixed up with bandwidth.

 

So EPoC may be a good chance to set the record straight and take the IEEE
specs back to real engineering.

 

Either way I do not have a strong opinion but concur with Marek that we need
something unambiguous.

Rajeev 

 

From: Hal Roberts [mailto:Hal.Roberts@xxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 6:06 PM
To: Jain, Rajeev; STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

I agree with Rajeev,

 

Seems one can go with the traditional approach where bandwidth refers to
spectrum or adopt the more recent use of bandwidth for data rate.

 

I have to side with the traditional approach. The term "Band-Width" is
pretty clear. There is a "band" (chunk of spectrum) and it has a width
associated with it.  

 

It is unfortunate that the digital folks appropriated bandwidth for data
rate.

 

Just my opinion.

 

From: Jain, Rajeev [mailto:rajeevj@xxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 8:02 PM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

Jorge, Marek,
Sorry to come late to the party but my vote is for "spectrum bandwidth" in
Hz when referring to the frequency bands in which we transmit  and "data
rate" or "bit rate" in bps when referring the rate at which bits are
transmitted in that frequency  band, assuming that is consistent with EPON.
I have also found that bandwidth is used loosely and can be misconstrued
when used in the context of digital data transmission - data/bit rate is
explicit is in this context. Adding the units to the definition will in any
case remove any ambiguity.

Cheers,

Rajeev

 

From: Salinger, Jorge [mailto:Jorge_Salinger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 5:43 PM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

Sounds good. So, I think we are in agreement then. Let's use the term
bandwidth to mean data capacity, and not use it to mean RF capacity.
Instead, when referring to RF capacity we use the term spectrum. 

Does that make sense?

Thanks!
Jorge 

 

From: Marek Hajduczenia [mailto:marek.hajduczenia@xxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 08:27 PM
To: Salinger, Jorge; stds-802-3-epoc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<stds-802-3-epoc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
Subject: RE: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion 
 

Jorge, 

 

In EPON, we used term "bandwidth" in the meaning of "data rate" / "channel
capacity", which in the retrospect perhaps was not the best idea. For
example, we had statements like "Flexible architecture allowing dynamic
allocation of bandwidth", which does not speak of spectrum allocation, but
rather channel capacity allocation. I could produce more examples where it
is used in this context, but I think you get the idea where it is going. 

 

In general, EPON we only spoke of wavelength / wavelength band allocation in
Clause 75/60, which is effectively spectrum allocation. However, the term
used was "wavelength" and "wavelength band/range". 

 

Does this help ?

 

Marek

 

From: Salinger, Jorge [mailto:Jorge_Salinger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 01:15
To: Marek Hajduczenia; stds-802-3-epoc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

Marek,

 

I understand. 

 

So, how is the term bandwidth used in EPON parlance? I looked down in the
thread and can't see an example, but maybe I missed it.

 

Thanks!

Jorge

 

From: Marek Hajduczenia <marek.hajduczenia@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 8:08 PM
To: "Salinger, Jorge" <Jorge_Salinger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, EPoC Study Group
<STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

Jorge, 

 

The only concern that I have with this is that multiple times we speak of
"bandwidth" without other denominators, leaving it open to interpretation. 

 

While I can certainly understand where Geoff would like us to go, if we set
different terminology from what was used in EPON before, we will create a
rift and people who understand EPON, will have to get used to a different
terminology for EPoC, something that I'd rather (personally) avoid. 

 

Marek

 

From: Salinger, Jorge [mailto:Jorge_Salinger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 01:04
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

All,

 

No quite being an RF guy, but having worked in the cable industry for over
20 years. (for those thinking that I am old. I started when I was 19 years
old ;-)

 

My 2 cents.

 

I would propose that when speaking of RF capacity we refer to it as
spectrum. So, in the case of the discussion referenced by this Email thread,
we say "spectrum for EPoC" or "EPoC spectrum".

 

I think that the term bandwidth can be ambiguous unless it is used in a
specific context, such as "the bandwidth of an analog cable channel is 6
MHz" and I also hear "the bandwidth of the highest HSD tier is 300 Mbps".

 

Jorge

 

From: Duane Remein <Duane.Remein@xxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Duane Remein <Duane.Remein@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 1:15 PM
To: EPoC Study Group <STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

Geoff,

I see your point, could we at least agree to preface there term with
"Spectra" when referring to RF (old habits, the only kind I have at this
point, die hard)?

Best Regards,

Duane

 

FutureWei Technologies Inc.

duane.remein@xxxxxxxxxx

Director, Access R&D

919 418 4741

Raleigh, NC

 

From: Geoff Thompson [mailto:thompson@xxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 1:04 PM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

Colleagues-

Just goes to show the extent to which Wikipedia is not an authoritative
source.
The answer to this question is obvious within the word itself.  Bandwidth is
the width of the spectral band, i.e. it is an analog measurement.

The so called "digital bandwidth" is not a bandwidth it is "channel
capacity" or "data rate" or "bit rate".

To illustrate how silly it is to use the spectral term for the digital term
just think of it in concrete terms.
You would never use the term "pavement width" when you mean "cars per hour".

I took a brief tour of older clauses of 802.3 and the term is mostly used
correctly.  There are several instances (which are unfortunately duplicated
in several places) where "bit rate" would have been more accurate.

I would strongly prefer that we preserve its analog meaning and use other
appropriate terminology for digital rate measurement (even if it means
bucking current common terminology). 

Geoff Thompson

On 208//12 9:22 AM, Hesham ElBakoury wrote: 

Jim,

 

Wikipedia defines bandwidth as follows:

Bandwidth has several related meanings:

*	Bandwidth (signal processing)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwidth_%28signal_processing%29>  or analog
bandwidth, frequency bandwidth or radio bandwidth: a measure of the width of
a range of frequencies, measured in hertz
*	Bandwidth (computing)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwidth_%28computing%29>  or digital
bandwidth: a rate of data transfer, bit rate or throughput, measured in bits
per second (bps

Hesham

 

From: Jim Farmer [mailto:jfarmer@xxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 8:50 AM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

Unfortunately, as if often the case, we have multiple different definitions
for the same term - as an RF nerd myself, I had difficulty getting used to
"bandwidth" referring to data.  But the data usage certainly is a common use
of the term.  If we need to differentiate the two, I'd suggest the shorter
term "RF bandwidth" when we need to differentiate the two.

 

Thanks,

jim

 

Jim Farmer, K4BSE

Chief System Architect,

FTTP Solutions

Aurora Networks

1220 Old Alpharetta Rd.

Ste. 370

Alpharetta, GA 30005 USA

678-339-1045 (office)

678-640-0860 (mobile)

jfarmer@xxxxxxxxxx

 

From: Duane Remein [mailto:Duane.Remein@xxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 11:32 AM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

Steve,

Your use ot the term "bandwidth" completely threw me, I've always associated
this term with data bandwidth. 

Can I suggest we use something like Spectrum Channel Width - defined as a
portion of RF spectrum dedicated to a transmission channel or sub-channel.

Once we agree on such a term Marek can then add this to the definitions
list.

Best Regards,

Duane

 

FutureWei Technologies Inc.

duane.remein@xxxxxxxxxx

Director, Access R&D

919 418 4741

Raleigh, NC

 

From: Shellhammer, Steve [mailto:sshellha@xxxxxxxxxxxx] 
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 6:42 PM
To: STDS-802-3-EPOC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [802.3_EPOC] EPoC Bandwidth Discussion

 

EPoC Group,

 

               Several of us had a good discussion on EPoC bandwidth this
morning.  I would like to see if there are other who would like to join us
for future calls on Friday mornings (10 AM Pacific Time).

 

               If anyone else would like to join us, please send me an email
and I will add you to the meeting invite.

 

               Once we have some slides put together we will review them on
the Monday AM calls, hosted by Comcast.

 

Steve

 

 


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