RE: [802SEC] +++ SEC Rules Change Letter Ballot +++ Addition of second vicechair position to SEC
A reply to MATT,
I would like to GIVE the 802.11 WG Chairs' view on my two Vice Chairs with reference to your attached email.
There has and will always be a minuted approach to the designate Vice Chair in 802.11 WG, if and when, the CHAIR is not available etc. THIS is a matter of record. Which I believe you have been informed about from your AT&T colleague Harry Worstell, my
That is, a chairs designate will be nominated by me (the current Chairperson) if in capacity, and if incapacitated the first elected vice chair will take over i.e. Al Petrick. If he is also incapacitated too then the previous Co-Vice Chair (Harry
Wortsell), now a Vice Chair is then in charge. Harry's upgrade to Vice Chair was by WG election one year before the St. Louis meeting. Clearly this shows that the first elected Vice Chair has the right of first refusal if the chairperson is incapacitated.
I take exception to your incorrect summary of my group.
I also believe that the Chairperson must have the right to address this issue as the needs or situations arrive, especially who is nominated temporary chair.
You did not point out that previous meetings had discussed this. Yes it will be updated in my 802.11 operating rules. NEVER FEAR. A simple statement WAS being worked on before your current viewpoint.
With regards to the LMSC rules changes in the motion:
b) The Vice Chair (s), the Executive Secretary, the Recording Secretary, the LMSC Treasurer and ex-officio members of the LMSC Executive Committee. These positions are appointed by the LMSC Chair and confirmed by the Executive Committee. (The LMSC Chair
may appoint one or two Vice Chairs at his' or her's discretion.)
I SUGGEST THIS WOULD READ - "THE LMSC CHAIRPERSON MAY APPOINT ONE OR TWO VICE CHAIRS" which I believe is politically correct. But being a humble Englishman, what would I know...
Finally I am at a loss why you choose to amend this paragraph below in the MOTION "Rules Change to add a second SEC vice chair".
18.104.22.168 Removal of Working Group Chairs or Vice Chairs.
The LMSC Executive Committee may remove the Chair or a Vice Chair of a Working Group or TAG for cause.
Surely this is not part of the MOTION, maybe you should have included in the MOTION:
"Removal of the SEC Chair, SEC Vice Chairs, Working Group Chairs, WG Vice Chairs or TAG Chairs.
The LMSC Executive Committee may remove the SEC Chair or a SEC Vice Chair or a Working Group or TAG Chair or there Vice Chair(s) for JUST cause."
This assumes that CAUSE is clearly defined or left so nebulous that anything can be........................................................
THEREFORE I CANNOT APPROVE THE MOTION AND RELEVANT DETAILS AS IT CURRENTLY IS MADE. I look forward to changes that I can vote positively for.
Waiting for your considerable answer.
Stuart J. Kerry
Chairperson, IEEE 802.11 WLANs WG
Matthew Sherman <firstname.lastname@example.org>@majordomo.ieee.org on 04/02/2002 09:39:52
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cc: (bcc: Stuart Kerry/SVL/SC/PHILIPS)
Subject: RE: [802SEC] +++ SEC Rules Change Letter Ballot +++ Addition of s econd vice chair position to SEC
Paul / Pat / All,
I'm a non-voting member, but still would like to express my opinion on this
issue with the recognition by all that it does directly impact me. I
largely agree with Pat. However, I'd like to suggest a slightly different
First, there is an existing model in 802 for having 2 Vice Chairs to be
considered. Both 802.11 and 802.15 have multiple Vice Chairs. In both
working groups, there is no formal distinction between the Vice Chairs. The
operating rules for 802.11 and 802.15 both call out a "co-vice chair"
position. 802.15 rules do not clearly call out the function of a co-vice
chair. 802.11 does more fully define the co-vice chair position, but
neither 802.11 nor 802.15 clearly define an order of succession as it would
relate to the co-vice chair position identified. Also, none of the
individuals currently elected and acting in the "Vice Chair" capacity for
802.11 and 802.15 are called co-vice chairs or anywhere identified as such.
In the recent elections, they were all nominated and elected simply as "Vice
Chairs". The co-vice chair position in the 802.11 and 802.15 rules seems to
be unused and out of date. The 802.11 and 802.15 working groups seem to
have informally superceded the rules moving instead to have two Vice Chair
positions. To my knowledge, the issue of succession between these vice
chairs is never formally addressed. It is also my understanding that at
least in 802.11, the operating rules are actively being amended, and that
the "co-vice chair" position may be eliminated leaving only Vice Chairs.
I'm not sure if the succession issue will be addressed.
My own opinion is that designating a co-vice chair, or, 1st and 2nd vice
chairs is actually more confusing then simply having two vice chairs. I
think it was Paul's intent that both individuals would serve equally, and he
would have no formal distinction in how he calls on them, or the duties they
would be asked to perform. I believe that this is how things currently work
in 802.11 and 802.15 as well. I don't believe any issues have arisen with
this approach in 802.11 or 802.15, and the approach seems to work well.
Also, 802.11 and 802.15 migrated to having two Vice Chairs from having a
vice chair and a co-vice chair, so there would seem to be some superiority
to the approach of having two vice chairs. However I agree with Pat that
there should be a formalization of succession between the Vice Chairs in
case a dispute ever did arise. To resolve the issue, I would suggest the
In the proposed rules change, after:
"(The LMSC Chair may appoint one or two Vice Chairs at his' or her's
"If two vice chairs are nominated for appointment, the minutes of the
meeting where nomination occurs must clearly note the order of nomination.
In case of a dispute over succession, the first person nominated as Vice
Chair shall have priority."
Note that I also agree with Pat's grammatical correction concerning "his or
her", though I have not noted it above. In the case of Geoff and myself,
should the rules changes above be adopted, Geoff was nominated first, and
would have priority as far as succession is concerned.
Since I am a non-voting member, I'm not sure what the disposition of my
comments on this ballot would be. However, I would most be interested in
hearing peoples opinions on my comments, particularly Pat's and Geoff's,
though I believe Roger also raised this issue. If anyone likes my proposed
resolution, I guess they could add it to their own comments.
Anyway, hope my opinion is helpful.
PTSM - Communications Technology Research
AT&T Labs - Shannon Laboratory
Room 3K18, Building 104
180 Park Avenue
P.O. Box 971
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971
Phone: +1 (973) 236-6925
Fax: +1 (973) 360-5877
From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 6:02 PM
To: firstname.lastname@example.org; email@example.com
Subject: RE: [802SEC] +++ SEC Rules Change Letter Ballot +++ Addition of
s econd vice chair position to SEC
Please consider the following comments on the addition of a second vice
Since part of the purpose of having a vice chair is to ensure that there is
a leader in the case where the chair becomes unexpectedly unable to serve
(either temporarily or permanently), the chain of succession needs to be
made clear. (Things may not be contentious at the current moment, but at
some point in the future they might be.) Therefore, some text should be
added to cover that such as "When there are two vice chairs, they shall be
designated first vice chair and second vice chair. The first vice chair will
assume the duties of chair if the chair is unable to do so. The second vice
chair assumes those duties if both the chair and the first vice chair are
Secondly, I believe it is time to remove "ex-officio members" from the list
of executive committee members. As Bob Grow pointed out, the statement has
no meaning for the current Executive committee. When the rules were first
written, the chairs of the original 802 MAC and Physical Layer working
groups were ex-officio members of the Executive committee - members as a
consequence of having held those offices. Currently, the only ex-officio
members are the working group and tag chairs but they are listed explicitly.
Balance of elected vs. appointed members: currently, 6 (or 7 if the TAG got
approved) executive committee members are elected and 4 are appointed (not
counting the Executive committtee chair in either group). This seems a bit
heavy on the appointed side.
Grammar: It should be "his or her discretion." His and her are already
possessive and don't need 's added to make them so.
From: Paul Nikolich [mailto:Paul.firstname.lastname@example.org]
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 11:43 AM
Subject: [802SEC] +++ SEC Rules Change Letter Ballot +++ Addition of
second vice chair position to SEC
This email provides notice of the rules change letter ballot for the
addition of a second vice chair to the SEC. The detailed changes are
included in the attached PDF file.
Scope: Rules Change to add a second SEC vice chair.
Purpose: To amend to rules allow the SEC to have two vice chair positions.
The scope and size of the IEEE Project 802 has increased to the point where
the amount of project 802 management work and range of knowledge has
significantly increased in the past 5 years. Adding a second vice chair to
the sponsor executive committee will better enable it to manage IEEE 802's
wide range of activities.
The ballot opens March 31, 2002 and closes June 8, 2002 12 midnight EDT
(remember if you do not vote or abstain it is equivalent to a DISAPPROVE
vote). Buzz, please ensure this gets sent to the 802-wide email list as
well. WG chairs, please invite your WG members to comment through you.
Chair, IEEE802 LAN/MAN Standards Project
mail: 18 Bishops Lane, Lynnfield, MA 01940