Re: [802SEC] UL and 802 policy about restriction notices in e-mails.
At 11:59 PM 7/22/02 -0600, Roger B. Marks wrote:
The notice I use for 802.16 was approved in 2000 by Susan Tatiner and
Denise Pribula Scozzafava, who at the time was "IEEE Copyright
Administrator" and "Administrator, Intellectual Property
Rights". They didn't tell me to what extent they reviewed it with
I think that a contribution cover sheet is important. Although IEEE-SA
procedures don't even acknowledge the concept of a contribution, we are
in fact contribution-driven. I think that the contribution presents a
golden opportunity to address copyright and patent issues at the time
material comes in.
However, that's just my opinion.
I don't want to try to push this issue into your proposed rules change.
However, do you accept that the last paragraph of your proposal:
>Copyrighted works may be accepted as submissions for inclusions in
drafts only with an appropriate release. Copyrighted works may be
referenced in drafts and presentations if they are available on
reasonable and non-discriminatory terms.
covers issues that are ultimately dealt with by the IEEE-SA? [By
"ultimately", I mean that if the IEEE-SA limits the contents of
standards, there is an implication that the Working Group ought not to
put them in the drafts.] If the IEEE-SA rules apply, then I'd prefer that
we delete the paragraph, lest we have rules that are either redundant
with or in conflict with IEEE-SA rules.
I actually prefer your rationale. My original wish was to limit my text
to restrictive notices and not get into the copyright issue. I only
included it because it seemed like it was needed for completeness. If we
have a rationale to drop it, so much the better.
At 3:30 PM -0700 02/07/22, Geoff Thompson
>I know that some standards organizations and other organizations do
require such a release. Until and unless we get a directive from IEEE-SA
(and their counsel) saying that we need such a release I prefer to stay
with the philosophy that less is more. What's more, my personal
preference would be not to ask them if we need an explicit release of
>Therefore, the 802.3 policy has always implicitly been:
> 1) No expressed claim of
copyright (avidly enforced by WG and TF officers)
> 2) Well known that
submitted is equal to posted
> 3) Well known and
advertised that mail goes to a posted archive
>I would prefer to keep it simple. 802.3 has no cover template.
>With respect to your notice, I have a problem in that you are
requiring a notice that is not required by IEEE policy and (as far as I
know) has not been reviewed or even acknowledged by IEEE-SA
>TIA is a trade organization whose members are companies. IEEE-SA is a
professional organization whose members are individuals. I am not enough
of a lawyer (and don't want to be) to presume that the situations are
>Just as a point of interest such a statement is not a cure-all. I
have been sitting in on TIA meetings where they have been trying to
develop text that says something to the effect that if you change the
text from the standard boilerplate then the change doesn't mean anything.
It is a little too much like: How many lawyers can dance on a
under-scored period with a strikethrough?
>At 03:10 PM 7/19/02 -0600, Roger B. Marks wrote:
>>I like everything you propose, but I have some comments on the
>> >Copyrighted works may be accepted as submissions for
inclusions in drafts only with an appropriate release.
>>My concern is that we need to have some kind of copyright release
for _all_ submissions. Even if a work is not explicitly copyrighted (by,
for example, some publisher), the author may own rights to it that could
possibly cause us some trouble.
>>I adapted this release notice, which is on the 802.16
contribution cover sheet template, from the TIA statement:
>>"The contributor grants a free, irrevocable license to the
IEEE to incorporate text contained in this contribution, and any
modifications thereof, in the creation of an IEEE Standards publication;
to copyright in the IEEE's name any IEEE Standards publication even
though it may include portions of this contribution; and at the IEEE's
sole discretion to permit others to reproduce in whole or in part the
resulting IEEE Standards publication. The contributor also acknowledges
and accepts that this contribution may be made public by IEEE
>> >Copyrighted works may be referenced in drafts and
presentations if they are available on reasonable and non-discriminatory
>>I think we should defer to the IEEE-SA policy and language on
this. If we embed specific language into our rules, we may find ourselves
out of sync.
>>>I just got off of the phone with John Verscaj, Vice President
and General Counsel of Underwriters Labs. He (effectively) said he
understands our position and will not oppose it further. He is
investigating options with the IT Department of UL and with the upper
management of UL that will solve the problem at the UL end. The current
situation is that (as far as he knows) the "Internet E-mail
Confidentiality Disclaimer" is automatically appended to all
external e-mails as they leave UL.
>>>Until he gets that problem solved I suggested that UL could
correspond with us via fax, postal mail or an outside e-mail account. I
said that we would respond promptly and were happy to work with
>>>So, as far as I am concerned, this is no longer a priority
issue. This episode does point out that it would be useful to have
relevant text in our P&P. To that end (as promised earlier), I would
like to put the following text in as a proposed addition to the IEEE
Project 802 Operating Rules. As an interested party and voting member of
802.3, I would also propose the same text for adoption in 802.3, to be
removed upon adoption by 802. This is only because the adoption track for
non-controversial issues in 802.3 is faster.
>>>Bob O'Hara, please put me down for a November Monday agenda
item to propose the following addition to the Operating Rules:
>>>(We currently have no "Procedure" for how to
achieve "openness" in our meetings. I think this is a start on
the more general topic. I believe that the text is an accurate
representation of our long standing policy.)
>>>(Proposed documentation of existing) 802 Policy regarding
>>>IEEE 802 operates in an open manner. To that end, no
material submitted to IEEE 802, or any of its sub-groups, will be
accepted or considered if that material contains any statement that
places any burden on the recipient(s) with respect to confidentiality or
copyright. This policy specifically includes e-mail.
>>>Any material that has such a "Confidentiality
Disclaimer" on it is not acceptable. The purpose of such a
disclaimer is to transfer some level of responsibility to the recipient
for deciding whether or not it is appropriate to disclose, use,
disseminate, copy, post or otherwise distribute, the material.
>>>IEEE 802 accepts no such responsibility.
>>>The most effective way for 802 to decline any such
responsibility is to not accept material with such a disclaimer.
>>>Correspondence with 802 groups will not be confidential. It
is very likely that any such correspondence (in addition to being
discussed in open meetings) will be posted in the open portion of our
web-site and thus will be disclosed, disseminated and distributed. Anyone
who wishes to correspond with an 802 group must understand and accept
this as a condition of sending us any documentation. Inclusion of any
restrictive notice is contrary to, and negates, any indication of
acceptance of the IEEE 802 policy of openness.
>>>Copyrighted works may be accepted as submissions for
inclusions in drafts only with an appropriate release. Copyrighted works
may be referenced in drafts and presentations if they are available on
reasonable and non-discriminatory terms.
>>>| Geoffrey O.
>>>| Vice Chair, IEEE
>>>| Nortel Networks, Inc. M/S: P79/06/B04 |
>>>| 4655 Great America
>>>| P. O. Box
>>>| Santa Clara, CA 95052-8185
>>>| Phone: +1 408 495
>>>| Fax: +1 408 495
>>>| Please see the IEEE 802 web page at