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Bob / all, The one things that does bother me a little is that while 84% meets the letter of the rule, it is a bit short of where I thought we normally send things to sponsor. I have generally been encouraged to get at least 90% or preferably 95% before going to sponsor ballot. In fact, I have sometimes discouraged people from sending stuff up to the EC specifically because it fell short of this goal and therefore I did not think it would make it through an EC vote. Does anyone have any comments on the idea of sending thing out to sponsor with less than 90 or 95% approval? Mat -----Original Message----- From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com]On Behalf Of Grow, Bob Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 7:48 PM To: IEEE802 Subject: RE: [802SEC] +++EC Motion+++ P802.3ah conditional approval Geoff: I must respectfully disagree with most of your arguments, finding them invalid. 1. There is no requirement to provide a summary of the comments. In fact, the requirement is to supply the comments and responses. That has been done with a URL. 2. Consideration of the motion was deferred because you complained the number of comments was too many to review in the EC meeting. Now you are arguing that it is too many to review in a 10 day ballot. The number of unresolved comments does not relieve our responsibilities for administering the process, and we would have to do so in the case of an unconditional request for forwarding to Sponsor Ballot. The only difference between an unconditional approval and the requested conditional approval is that 19 comments included in the current recirculation might possibly be reduced in number. The comments already recirculated but still unresolved would not decrease with were this an unconditional approval for Sponsor Ballot. 3. I will not attempt to dispute your subjective judgment that the 65 unresolved comments contra-indicate that "...ballot resolution efforts have been substantially completed...", other than to reiterate that of these comments, only 19 unresolved comments are from the D2.1 ballot and 7 of the 19 are pile-on comments to D2.0 comments. Each member of the EC must make their own subjective judgment if this criteria has been met. 4. The number of comments you cite as evidence of lack of consensus is not supported by the approval ratio. The approval ratio at 84% remains well above the required 75%. 5. The schedule for resolution of comments was presented to the SEC when the motion was originally presented at the closing EC meeting. My apologies for the lack of redundancy in presenting that information again with the motion. If the recirculation ballot produces no comments, there will be no meeting. If there are comments, a BRC will meet via teleconference on 4 December to resolve the comments. The BRC meeting with short notice was approved by 802.3 (56, 0, 21). There are things in the P802.3ah draft that I personally don't like. I have concerns about what I believe are technical problems in the draft. I have unresolved comments from D2.0 (supported by some D2.1 pile-on comments). No D2.0 voter's comments were persuasive enough make the recirculation ballot fail. Independent of my personal concerns expressed through the Working Group ballot, I recognize that at the EC I am not to judge the technical content of the draft, but I am to judge if the procedural requirements have been met and defer to the technical judgment of the ballot group. I as Chair and each member of the EC have obligations to both the minority and the majority of the ballot group. Though a minority remain unsatisfied, their comments were and are being recirculated to the ballot group. I believe our obligation to them has been fulfilled. We now have an obligation to act per the expressed will of the majority. --Bob Grow -----Original Message----- From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Thompson Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 12:08 PM To: Paul Nikolich Cc: IEEE802 Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++EC Motion+++ P802.3ah conditional approval Colleagues- Please read Procedure 10 carefully BEFORE you vote. Procedure 10 was specifically put in place to bring consistency to the conditional approval process. My vote is DISAPPROVE My primary rationale: The requirements of Procedure 10 have NOT been met. Specifically (extracted verbatim from procedure 10): ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Motions requesting conditional approval to forward where the prior ballot has closed shall be accompanied by: * Date the ballot closed [GOT: 2.1 closed 3-Nov per slide 2] * Vote tally including Approve, Disapprove and Abstain votes [GOT: Buried in table slide 2, 92/18/6 * Comments that support the remaining disapprove votes and Working Group responses. [GOT: Unsatisfied requirement, further comments below.] * Schedule for confirmation ballot and resolution [GOT: Unsatisfied requirement, further comments below.] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ RE: Remaining Disapproves: 802.3 has not provided a concise summary of the "remaining disapprove votes and Working Group responses" to you in this motion package per the "shall be accompanied by" requirement. Rather they have merely provided a pointer to: "Complete comment databases from these two ballots are available at: http://www.ieee802.org/3/efm/public/comments/." This does not meet the requirement This has the effect of masking the extent to which consensus has or has not been met. The fact that there are (slide 3) "65 unresolved Technical Required (negative) comments" really means that there are too many comments to be reviewed during an EC motion. ["Seeking conditional approval is only appropriate when ballot resolution efforts have been substantially completed..."] This issue has been ducked by not meeting the requirement and exposing the dissenting votes. It is my belief that this project, at this point in the process, is an inappropriate stretch of the intention of Procedure 10. RE: Schedule for confirmation ballot: I don't understand why the required specifics have not been provided instead of the generalities provided below. The schedule for recirc is known as the ballot has already been opened. There seems to me no meeting scheduled for resolution of comments. I assert that this is a requirement of this procedure. Sincerely, Geoff At 11:56 AM 11/21/2003 -0500, Paul Nikolich wrote: Dear SEC members, This is a 10 day SEC email ballot to make a determination by EC motion to conditionally approve P802.3ah to begin Sponsor Ballot. Motion The LMSC executive committee grants conditional approval per Procedure 10, for P802.3ah sponsor ballot pending successful completion of the working group ballot process. Moved by Bob Grow Seconded by Tony Jeffree The email ballot opens on Friday Nov 21 NOON EST and Monday Dec 1 NOON EST. Please direct your responses to the EC reflector with a CC directly to me ( firstname.lastname@example.org <mailto:email@example.com> ). Regards, - Paul Nikolich Chairman, IEEE 802 LMSC Colleagues: During the closing EC meeting, consideration of conditional approval for P802.3ah progressing to sponsor ballot was deferred for email consideration. * The working group vote for conditional approval passed Y: 57, N: 2, A: 17 as shown in the attachment. * This EC vote is being conducted in parallel with the second working group recirculation ballot. This timing will allow a sponsor ballot to be conducted prior to the Vancouver interim meeting if the recirculation ballot results satisfy Procedure 10 of the LMSC P&P. There is insufficient time for conduct of a working group ballot, EC ballot and sponsor ballot in serial prior to the Vancouver meeting. * If the requirements of Procedure 10 are met, the sponsor ballot will open very quickly after close of the working group recirculation. * The initial P802.3ah/D2.0 working group ballot closed 3 Sep 2003 and the first WG recirculation ballot on P802.3ah/D2.1 closed 3 Nov 2003. Complete comment databases from these two ballots are available at: http://www.ieee802.org/3/efm/public/comments/ <http://www.ieee802.org/3/efm/public/comments/> . * The ballot results are in the attached report. * Unresolved (unsatisfied) negative comments from D2.0 were included in the D2.1 recirculation. * Unresolved (unsatisfied) negative comments from both D2.1 and D2.0 are included in the D2.2 recirculation. * If you want access to the drafts, please contact Howard or me for the username and password. Motion The LMSC executive committee grants conditional approval per Procedure 10, for P802.3ah sponsor ballot pending successful completion of the working group ballot process.