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Re: [802SEC] Amended P&P text for Roll Call Vote Rules Change




Buzz,

I bring that specific point up because it has been suggested that
any limit that is set could be used up by "friendly" roll call
votes on useless issues. Thus providing a reason to deny roll
call votes on non-friendly / important issues.

Providing no limit and trusting the chair to be fair should
work pretty well. If the chair clearly denies roll call votes
from one group, then that group has a basis for protesting the
chair's behavior.

Rather than provide a fixed limit in the rules, it might be
more helpful to have a discussion from each chair on
where they think the reasonable limit is. That would give all
chairs a sense of what their collegues see as reasonable and
hence gives them a sense of whether their personal cut-off
point would be used as abuse of power.

cheers,

mike

Rigsbee, Everett O wrote:
> Mike,  Do you actually think that both sides would be trying to use the same delaying tactic ???  If that were the case, I should think they would just adjourn the meeting instead.  After 4 Roll Call votes from any source you gotta be thinking that someone is playing games, and who wants to try to identify who's on what sides ???  I'm sure everybody is getting frustrated at that point so it's time to issue the warning.  You'll probably get a solid round of applause for that.  
> 
> Thanx,  Buzz
> Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
> Boeing - SSG
> PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
> Seattle, WA  98124-2207
> (425) 865-2443    Fx: (425) 865-6721
> cell: (425) 417-1022
> everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Takefman [mailto:tak@cisco.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 12:51 PM
> To: Rigsbee, Everett O
> Cc: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Amended P&P text for Roll Call Vote Rules Change
> 
> 
> Buzz,
> 
> I really don't have an issue with putting in a number like that,
> and I am willing to discuss it during the resolution session.
> 
> The challenge of course is are you saying 4 per "side" since there
> are always at least 2 sides per issue.
> 
> mike
> 
> Rigsbee, Everett O wrote:
> 
>>Mike,  I'm just thinking that to the extent you can put some threshold guides in there you can perhaps deflect some of the more onerous appeals processes, which can indeed be very unpleasant to have to deal with.  For example, if you were to quantify "abuse" as requests for more than 4 roll-call votes during any single meeting, that gives the chair a threshold at which he can warn folks of the consequences of further "abuse" and hopefully head off the tactic and the possible disputes that might result from having to apply the rule.  
>>
>>A little specificity can go a long way to preventing disputes in the first place.    :-)   
>>
>>Thanx,  Buzz
>>Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
>>Boeing - SSG
>>PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
>>Seattle, WA  98124-2207
>>(425) 865-2443    Fx: (425) 865-6721
>>cell: (425) 417-1022
>>everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mike Takefman [mailto:tak@cisco.com] 
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:18 PM
>>To: Rigsbee, Everett O
>>Cc: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
>>Subject: Re: [802SEC] Amended P&P text for Roll Call Vote Rules Change
>>
>>
>>Buzz,
>>
>>I agree with you.
>>
>>In the end, people make their own decisions, and the remainder
>>of us get to grouse after the fact.
>>
>>The chair, WG, EC and so on up the chain will be forced to
>>distinguish if complaints and ultimately appeals get launched
>>based on things chairs do (or don't do). This has happened
>>in the past, and will happen in the future. The goal in
>>my mind is to try to insure the process is not just open and
>>fair, but seen to be open and fair.
>>
>>mike
>>
>>Rigsbee, Everett O wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Mike,  Well, as they always say, "One man's art is another man's pornography.  How do you distinguish the two ?"
>>>
>>>Thanx,  Buzz
>>>Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
>>>Boeing - SSG
>>>PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
>>>Seattle, WA  98124-2207
>>>(425) 865-2443    Fx: (425) 865-6721
>>>cell: (425) 417-1022
>>>everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Mike Takefman [mailto:tak@cisco.com] 
>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:41 AM
>>>To: Rigsbee, Everett O
>>>Cc: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
>>>Subject: Re: [802SEC] Amended P&P text for Roll Call Vote Rules Change
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Buzz,
>>>
>>>I copied that text right out of Roberts where it was discussing
>>>divisions of the assembly. So that particular language has
>>>withstood a long time.
>>>
>>>Right now our P&P gives huge power to the chair without all
>>>that much guidance. The proposed text is clearly in line
>>>with that philosophy.
>>>
>>>The requirement to minute the chair's reasons gives sufficient
>>>details in the event that someone wants to protest that the
>>>chair is abusing their position.
>>>
>>>I think in the end, it is like pornography, or at least art.
>>>
>>>I don't know art, but I know what I hate!
>>>
>>>cheers,
>>>
>>>mike
>>>
>>>Rigsbee, Everett O wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Mike,  I think you're still going to have problems if you can't provide more specificity for what constitutes abuse.  
>>>>
>>>>The WG Chair needs some guidelines for how/where to draw the line.  It can't just be like pornography.  
>>>>
>>>>Thanx,  Buzz
>>>>Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
>>>>Boeing - SSG
>>>>PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
>>>>Seattle, WA  98124-2207
>>>>(425) 865-2443    Fx: (425) 865-6721
>>>>cell: (425) 417-1022
>>>>everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Mike Takefman [mailto:tak@cisco.com] 
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 6:55 AM
>>>>To: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
>>>>Subject: [802SEC] Amended P&P text for Roll Call Vote Rules Change
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear EC Members and interested parties,
>>>>
>>>>In January a small Comment Resolution
>>>>group sat down and resolved the comments on the
>>>>Rules Change Ballot (which failed originally).
>>>>
>>>>These proposed changes will be discussed at the
>>>>sunday night rules change meeting in Orlando.
>>>>
>>>>I believe that this text provides a good compromise
>>>>on both allowing roll call votes and allowing the
>>>>chair to make progress in meetings by not being
>>>>swamped by roll call votes.
>>>>
>>>>I would like to have an straw poll on this new
>>>>text from EC members between now and the rules
>>>>change meeting. Please email me with your support or
>>>>concerns over this change.
>>>>
>>>>cheers,
>>>>
>>>>mike
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 


-- 
Michael Takefman              tak@cisco.com
Distinguished Engineer,       Cisco Systems
Chair IEEE 802.17 Stds WG
3000 Innovation Dr, Ottawa, Canada, K2K 3E8
voice: 613-254-3399       cell:613-220-6991