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Re: [802SEC] Five day approval process

With at least two questions as to how many people were present when the
document was approved, I still have not seen an answer from Mike.

Mike, how many people were in the meeting when the document was approved
by 802.18? 

-----Original Message-----
From: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Five day approval process

The decision is Paul's, but for the record .....

I believe the issue here is not whether a quorum is required (it is
required by the 802. P&P and I don't believe you can over rule that with
a motion) but under what condition is a quorum assumed.  In the absence
of a record that show a quorum was or was not present, the fact that the
meeting and vote was held implies a quorum. This should only be called
into question at the time of the vote, not after the fact.  I believe
this is consistent with the guidance in Roberts Rules, and to do
otherwise would greatly impact some of our larger groups who must take
many votes at interims and should not be required to prove presence of a
quorum at every vote.  It should only be if that quorum is questioned at
the time of the vote.

Just my 2 cents...


Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
Senior Member Technical Staff
Office: +1 973.633.6344
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl R. Stevenson [mailto:wk3c@WK3C.COM] 
Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Five day approval process


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Lynch [mailto:mjlynch@NORTEL.COM] 
> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 7:55 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Five day approval process
> Pat,
> Paul and I discussed this yesterday. The situation aligns 
> with what Mat
> said in his email. There is an enabling motion from the July 
> plenary to
> allow the interim to work. That motion allowed work without a quorum.


While first pointing out that I raised the issue SOLELY on process, NOT
the content of the document, since I have no objection to the content, I
still believe that a motion that purports to allow a WG or TAG to
"firm and final" business (in the case of .18, filing documents with any
outside regulatory body) whether a quorum is present or not, is contrary
both the .18 P&P AND the 802 P&P, the latter of which would render
any such provisions in the .18 P&P (and I don't believe that the .18 P&P
contains such provisions).

When I was chairing .18, we NEVER to my knowledge/recollection sent a
document for the 5 day EC review, and certainly not "outside," without
having had the document approved by the required 75% majority with a

While we may have *crafted* documents without a quorum, if one was not
present, we followed up on several occasions with a duly noticed (5 day
notice, per the TAG provisions in the 802 P&P) conference call meeting,
a quorum present on that conference call, to *approve* the document.

(The provisions for a "short" (5 day) notice for such conference calls
*specifically* put into the 802 P&P at my request in recognition of the
that .18 routinely faced filing deadlines set by regulators who "weren't
considerate enough to take our normal 2 month meeting cycles into
consideration" when they established filing deadlines.)

In fact, as many on the EC will recall, on a couple of occasions, even
802 plenaries, I "ran around like a chicken with its head cut off"
down votes from the EC when something had to be filed (or presented to
ITU-R) on short notice, with Paul's cooperation in conducting an EC
electronic ballot *during* a plenary with the provision that it would
as soon as all of the EC members had voted and it was clear that the
for EC approval had passed (one such ITU-R submission was, in fact,
presented to me by you and Dr. Costa about mid-week during a plenary
the deadline was for the document to be received electronically in
Geneva by
noon on Friday - ahead of the closing EC meeting).

It seems to me that this EC consultation was likely known of far enough
advance that a draft could have been prepared by e-mail correspondence
and/or conference calls, followed by a 5 day noticed conference call for
TAG approval vote (roll call, to assure quorum), in order to actually
the filing deadline.

While I sympathize with the predicament that .18 is in (and, again,
object to the content of the document that's been presented for EC
I think that it's a slippery slope to set a precedent of effectively
condoning the concept of a motion that effectively attempts to suspend
P&P of a WG or TAG and 802 P&P provisions.

.22's P&P states that the WG need not adjourn, and can continue to "do
business" in the absense of a quorum at an interim, but that, absent a
quorum, any votes that may be taken must be affirmed by the WG, either
by an
electronic ballot or at the following plenary.

> According to those who have been in the RR-TAG longer than I 
> have it was
> a normal motion for an interim and conference calls between plenary
> meetings. The meeting was announced well in advance.

Yes, we adopted motions to authorize an interim to occur between
but we never, to my knowledge, attempted to bypass the clearly specified
quorum requirement for approval of the work product.
> Not letting the document through supports those who would like to keep
> the 2.5 GHz band in Europe limited to either UMTS (the current
> situation) or to other technologies contained in ITU-R M.1457. None of
> those are IEEE 802 technologies. I'm not saying that the 802.18 input
> (it is not meant to be a 802 input) will be what makes the 
> difference. I
> am saying that there are those who are wanting to keep IEEE 802
> technologies out of the band in Europe and blocking the response
> supports their views. It seems in our best interests to encourage the
> European Commission to enable true technology neutrality in this
> frequency band. This is already a late response to the consultation. I
> suspect that even if the RR-TAG had been in Garden Grove some 
> would have
> still objected to encouraging the European Commission to take the
> technology neutral approach which of course would allow IEEE 802
> standards to be used.

I am sympathetic to all of the above ... It's not the content of the
document that concerns me, but the concept of "writing a blank check" to
what I understand was a VERY small minority of .18 voting members who
present in Geneva (while I don't have first hand knowledge, it's my
understanding that there were only 3 voting members present in addition
the Chair - if I've been given incorrect information on that, please
me and accept my apology, but that's what I heard).  That is,
FAR from a quorum, and one of the reasons that I was disappointed with
decision to meet in Geneva - in addition to the fact that .18 was not
in Garden Grove to "service the needs of" the Wireless WGs.

> I'm perfectly happy to let Paul do what he said he would do 
> and that is determine the result.

It's my understanding from following the message thread that Pat has
made a
motion to block filing and it's been seconded by Bob Grow ... With all
respect to both you and Paul, I believe that that takes the matter out
Paul's hands and requires an EC electronic ballot (and that, per the P&P
document may not be sent out unless/until that motion fails).

Again, I sympathize with your predicament, but with all due respect, I
it could have been avoided while staying clearly within the process
prescribed by th P&P's, either by having met in Garden Grove with the
majority of the wireless WGs or by using the conference call provisions
the TAG rules for such documents.

Please don't take this personally, or as an "attack on .18," which it is


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