Re: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
I have been watching this debate and I must agree with Bob ... If for some
reason I was unable to attend a plenary, I would want my Vice-chair to be
able to act on my WG's behalf - bring necessary motions to the EC and vote
on them.
As Bob points out, anything less would disenfranchise my WG's membership and
place necessary EC motions in jeopardy.
I think we need to make provisions for a Vice-chair, who is delegated by and
acting for a Chair who can't be present, to take the Chair's seat in the EC
meeting and act as the Chair's proxy.
While I have never missed a single plenary or interim in all the years since
I started participating in 802, there is always the possibility that any of
the WG chairs could be taken ill at the wrong time, have an accident, a
death in the family, etc. and be unable to participate. In such a case, I
see no reason why their duly-elected (and confirmed by the EC) Vice-chair
should not be able to represent the WG.
Regards,
Carl
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@CISCO.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 12:26 AM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
>
> Sorry to bring this topic back up. But, I have just gotten
> back from vacation and dug out from under more email messages
> than I though possible to receive in only two weeks.
>
> The problem I have with the philosophy you describe below is
> that it works right up to the point where there is a
> contentious issue before the EC and a single vote can
> determine passage or failure. That situation is not nearly
> as rare as it might sound. In that situation, hundreds of
> members are actually, not just theoretically,
> disenfranchised. Being able to speak on a motion that must
> be made by another member of the EC (since the acting chair
> can't even make the
> motion) is not nearly the same as being able make the motion
> itself and then to vote on it.
>
> Why do you think that voting membership in the WGs/TAGs is
> such a big deal that we have had to spend so much time on the
> text to gain and lose that membership? It is because simply
> being able to speak to the assembly is not enough.
>
> -Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
> [mailto:matthew.sherman@baesystems.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 8:19 PM
> To: Bob O'Hara (boohara); STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
>
> Bob,
>
> First the summary of my opinion:
>
> I believe the P&P clearly prohibit a WG Vice Chair designated
> 'Acting Chair' by the WG Chair from voting. However, The WG
> Vice Chair could have other important rights such as the
> right to sit at the table with the rest of the EC, and fully
> participate in discussions. While I am sympathetic to the
> idea that the WG is somehow disenfranchised in such a
> situation, I don't think it is as serious an issue as it
> sounds, and don't think we need any rules changes.
>
> Now for the details:
>
> Please consider the extracts from the currently posted LMSC
> P&P shown below. (I don't think the current P&P deviates
> substantially in this regard though things may change in November.)
>
> These clearly state that no WG Chair (even though they have a
> constituency and may run the WG) may vote until confirmed by the EC.
> The passage even makes reference to the fact that 'ACTING' EC
> members (and a Vice Chair of a WG representing the sitting
> Chair would have to be considered as such) do not get to
> vote. But they can sit at the table, participate in
> discussion, and represent the views of the WG.
>
> As such I would not say a WG is totally disenfranchised.
> There are some rights granted. Assumedly in a room full of
> reasonable people, an Acting Chair should be able to convince
> others at the table of actions needed by the WG and they
> would be carried out (based on actions of other EC members).
> As long as enough non-acting WG chairs show up that we have a
> quorum, the EC can function effectively. Since it is
> currently rare for a WG chair to be absent for an extended
> period of time, I don't think we need ever worry about the EC
> being unable to conduct business due to unavailability of a
> large number of chairs.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mat
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Extracts from Posted LMSC P&P
> ------------------------------------------
>
>
> 7.1.2 Membership
>
> ....
>
> In addition, the Executive Committee includes the following non-voting
> members:
>
> Chairs of Hibernating Working Groups.
> Appointed WG or TAG Chairs
> Acting positions
> (prior to the close of the plenary meeting
> where appointed or elected)
>
> All appointed and elected positions become effective at the
> end of the plenary session where the appointment/ election
> occurs. Prior to the end of that plenary session, such
> persons filling vacancies are considered 'Acting', and do not
> vote. Persons who are succeeding someone that currently holds
> the position do not acquire any EC rights until the close of
> the plenary session.
>
> ...
>
> In case an election or appointment is not confirmed by the
> EC, the person last holding the position will continue to
> serve until confirmation of an election or appointment are achieved.
>
> Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
> Senior Member Technical Staff
> BAE SYSTEMS, CNIR
> Office: +1 973.633.6344
> email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@CISCO.COM]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 6:56 PM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
>
> Paul,
>
> The "kerfuffle", as you say, and what is broken is that while
> Stuart is on vacation, for the next six weeks, 500 voting
> members and an unholy number of members that are not yet
> voting members of 802.11 have no voice in the EC. This
> essentially disenfranchises those members.
>
> Why should that be allowed, when the possibility to deal with
> it simply is available? Why should a chair not be allowed to
> designate someone to act in his/her stead, when the need
> arises? The current LMSC P&P does not prohibit that.
>
> Presumably, we in the EC have confirmed that a vote was taken
> according to required procedures when we confirm the election
> of a chair. That confirmation is not a confirmation that
> "joe is in the club (the EC)".
> Joe is in the club because the election of his WG/TAG put him
> there. It is the WG/TAG that chooses who is in the EC, not
> us (well, except for the appointed positions).
>
> If that chair is operating with the consent of the WG and the
> chair designates someone to proxy for him for a reason and
> for a temporary period, who are we to say the WG and chair
> cannot do that?
>
> When a chair "passes the gavel" during a meeting, the person
> now holding that gavel is the chair. How is this different?
>
>
> -Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Nikolich [mailto:paul.nikolich@ATT.NET]
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 3:37 PM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
>
> Dear EC members,
>
> The right to cast an EC vote is held by specific EC members
> is defined in the P&P. Gaining EC membership is defined in the P&P.
>
> I don't understand the kerfuffle surrounding this topic. In
> my view nothing is broken in the P&P on this topic--let's not
> try to fix it.
>
> --Paul
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pat Thaler" <pat_thaler@AGILENT.COM>
> To: <STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 4:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
>
>
> > And here is the message with my view on the subject:
> >
> > The rules are clear. The voting position on the Exec belongs to the
> > Working Group chair (once confirmed or appointed).
> >
> > If you want to change that, it would require a rules change. I would
> be
> > against such a rules change. I think consistency/continuity in our
> > membership is important. If it was officially stated that the vote
> could
> > be used by a vice chair in place of the chair, I'm concerned that
> Chairs
> > might fairly regularly send their vice chair to the EC in
> their place
> > which would lose continuity.
> >
> > With the rules as they are, we get very good Working Group Chair
> > attendance.
> >
> > By the way, I also think that if we must continue this
> discussion, it
> > should move to the EC reflector where it is visible. We have drifted
> well
> > off the contract matters that required private discussion.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Pat
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob O'Hara (boohara) [mailto:boohara@CISCO.COM]
> > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 1:32 PM
> > To: STDS-802-SEC@listserv.ieee.org
> > Subject: [802SEC] EC Membership and voting
> >
> > Taking this to the reflector for more open discussion of the issue.
> >
> > This is a very important issue and needs to be discussed. I don't
> think
> > that precedent is sufficient to "decide" this matter.
> >
> > I disagree with all that have said that membership on the EC is held
> by
> > an individual. It is not. Membership in 802 is a right held by
> > individual. Membership on the EC is held by a position. No
> individual
> > is selected by any means for membership on the EC. Individual 802
> > members are selected for a position, either by their WG/TAG or by
> > confirmation of an appointment by the LMSC chair. It is
> the position
> > that holds the voting right on the EC, not the individual. Clause
> 7.1.2
> > in the P&P is very clear on this point.
> >
> > A simple example will serve to illustrate this. I am currently the
> > Recording Secretary and able to vote in the EC. If I were to resign
> > that position, even though I am still an individual member
> of 802 and
> > 802.11, I would no longer be able to vote in the EC. The
> confirmation
> > of my appointment to the position of Recording Secretary
> made me able
> to
> > vote, not the fact that I, as an individual, was confirmed as an
> > abstract "member of the EC".
> >
> > The P&P discuss "succession" in only one specific case, when an
> election
> > or appointment is not confirmed by the EC. It does not
> apply to this
> > situation.
> >
> > If a WG/TAG chair has their own P&P allow them the power to appoint
> > someone to act in their absence or incapacity and our P&P are silent
> on
> > the topic, is that appointed person now the "chair" for all intents
> and
> > purposes under our P&P?
> >
> > I would say we are in an ambiguous situation. Precedent
> may make one
> > feel comfortable. But, it is not a defense for an appeal and it is
> not
> > sufficient to close this issue.
> >
> > Personally, I think that an elected chair should be able to
> have their
> > WG/TAG represented on the EC in their absence or incapacity. Why
> would
> > we want anything different? Do we really want to silence a
> WG of more
> > than 500 voting members, simply because the chair is on vacation?
> >
> > -Bob
> >
> > Bob O'Hara
> > Cisco Systems - WNBU
> >
> > Phone: +1 408 853 5513
> > Mobile: +1 408 218 4025
> >
> >
> > ----------
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> This
> > list is maintained by Listserv.
> >
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