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Re: [802SEC] +++ Final LMSC P&P Revision Ballot Results +++ WG Plenary


I believe that you have incorrectly recorded my vote as DNV whereas it
should read DISAPPROVE. Indeed Jerry's vote was based partly on my vote as
per your attached comments received. Please also check Jerry's voting
position. Thanks.

Best Regards,


-----Original Message-----
From: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA) [mailto:matthew.sherman@BAESYSTEMS.COM] 
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 7:35 PM
Subject: [802SEC] +++ Final LMSC P&P Revision Ballot Results +++ WG Plenary

Dear EC members,


This ballot has now closed.  Below you will see the final status of the
ballot. All comments received to date are compiled at the end. Thanks to all
who participated.  Please let me know if you see any errors.


The ballot fails.  More importantly there does not seem to be support for
the general concept of a WG Plenary.  However, there does seem to be support
for Roger's concept of conditionally eliminating the quorum requirement for
Interim meetings.  I plan to provide an updated text based on Roger's
concept and discuss it at the upcoming comment resolution telecon.  As a
reminder the comment resolution telecon will be held:


            February 9th, 2006 at 12 PM EST


I will provide dial in info prior to the telecon.  


Right now my inclination to keep Roger's text as is with the following


      Replace 1 year announcement requirement with 3 plenary cycles

      Limit application of this rule to FULL working group meetings (not
task forces or task groups)


Note that any allowance for an interim without a quorum is an improvement.
So I prefer not to push for 6 months and stick with a time period closer to
a year.  I hope those pushing for a shorter time period can see this
reasoning and support the longer option.  At a later time people can push
for a shorter period, but given at least 1 objection to
6 months, I feel we should be conservative for now.










Voters                  DNV   DIS   APP   ABS   Comments Provided?


00 Paul Nikolich        DNV

01 Mat Sherman          DNV                     YES

02 Pat Thaler          DNV

03 Buzz Rigsbee         DNV

04 Bob O'Hara                 DIS               YES

05 John Hawkins         DNV

06 Tony Jeffree               DIS               YES

07 Bob Grow                   DIS               YES

08 Stuart Kerry         DNV

09 Bob Heile            DNV

10 Roger Marks                DIS               YES

11 Mike Takefman              DIS               YES

12 Mike Lynch                 DIS               YES

13 Steve Shellhammer    DNV

14 Jerry Upton          DNV

15 Ajay Rajkumar        DNV

16 Carl Stevenson             DIS               YES


TOTALS                   DNV  DIS  APP  ABS

total:                  -10- -07- -00- -00-



Ballot Comments:


Thu 2/2/2006 3:54 PM


I also vote disapprove. I agree with Stuart's comments. 




Stuart J. Kerry [stuart@OK-BRIT.COM]
Thu 2/2/2006 3:48 PM


I am afraid that I too will have to vote disapprove on similar grounds as
Carl, and Mike. I also suggest that Roger has some good ideas for
improvements in his dissertation. A face to face should iron some of this
out, especially as the March session is approaching fast. Please make the
latter meeting at a convenient time that all can participant.
Thanks in advance.





Tony Jeffree []
Thu 2/2/2006 3:26 PM


Roger's idea looks significantly better than the alternatives to me.




Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
Thu 2/2/2006 2:37 PM


I too am inclined to support Roger suggestion.


When the voting is over, I plan to do comment resolution.  But before I do,
I'd like to hear from everyone whether:


      1) my original concept had a prayer (ie don't even bother patching

      2) Roger's idea is the best way forward

      3) We shouldn't be playing with this....


I am particularly interested in the opinion of the larger groups since I
feel they are the most impacted.  One difference between Roger's idea and my
original idea is that Roger's doesn't help role people off quicker from the
membership, where as mine would.




Michael Lynch []
Thu 2/2/2006 2:34 PM


I vote disapprove.


I agree with Carl's comments of 2 February about a year being a bit onerous
for interims and that 6 months would be an adequate notice.





Mike Takefman (tak) [tak@CISCO.COM]
Thu 2/2/2006 1:52 PM


I like Rogers wording, and I'm fine with 1 year although perhaps we need a
little bit of fuzzyness around the timeframe to make it operationally
reasonable and I would change the timeframe to 336 days. Which is

48 weeks.


Consider a group that has an interim that was pre-announced for over a year
and is held January 16-19, 2006. At that session they announce that January
15-18, 2006 will be an interim session. Ooops, they missed the deadline for
announcement by 1 day (assuming a year is the required minimum. Having done
a small amount of meeting planning I think 48 weeks is close enough to 1
year to allow for yearly shifts in meeting weeks without diluting the idea
of a long announcement period.


I'd also be willing to lower the window somewhat more, but in my view, the
minimum window of pre-announcement is

3 plenary sessions. So if during the plenary of March

2006 the annoucement is made and posted to the website then its ok to have a
"no quorum" interim session between November and March 2007. That means you
have an minimum window of 8 months, but is more likely 10 months given that
interims are generally put 1/2 way between plenaries.


I would vote disapprove on any change that had a window any less then 3
plenary sessions.




Carl R. Stevenson [wk3c@WK3C.COM]
Thu 2/2/2006 1:15 PM


I still vote disapprove, but I am inclined to support Roger's suggestion,
which I think is elegant in its simplicity, with the following suggested



I think that a year's notice may be a bit onerous for interims and wonder
whether 6 months might be adequate notice.

In my view, knowing 6 months in advance that an interim was going to be held
and where seems to certainly be enough time to allow someone to plan to
attend if they want to participate ...




Roger B. Marks []
Wed 2/1/2006 9:02 PM


I vote Disapprove. I will change my vote to Approve provided the following
changes are made:


(1) Eliminate all of the P&P changes proposed in the ballot.


(2) Specify that, in subclause "Voting at Meeting," 

immediate after the sentence:


"No quorum is required at meetings held in conjunction with the Plenary
session since the Plenary session time and place is established well in


the following sentence shall be added:


"Likewise, no quorum is required at interim sessions provided that their
time and place are established and publicly announced at least one year in
advance and that this information is readily available to the public during
that year."





Carl R. Stevenson [wk3c@WK3C.COM]
Wed 2/1/2006 9:27 AM


Disapprove.  I also agree with Bob G. (and Mike T.)




Tony Jeffree [tony@JEFFREE.CO.UK]
Wed 2/1/2006 7:48 AM


I vote disapprove also - and agree with Bob's comments below.


****** Editor's note - He means Bob Grows comments



Mike Takefman (tak) []
Tue 1/31/2006 11:23 PM


I vote disapprove, I essentially agree with Bob Grow.


I have sympathy with the quorum problem and am willing to see that
addressed, but it should be dealt with in the interim meeting section.


I believe that the 1 year pre-announcement period is sufficient to remove
the quorum requirement.


However, I think we need to have a consistent view of aging and acquisition
of WG membership, and creating more plenary meetings is a recipe for





Bob O'Hara (boohara) [boohara@CISCO.COM] Mon 1/30/2006 3:03 PM


I support this change, once the following comments are addressed.



8.2.1, line 7, editorial: change "Opening Plenary meetings" to Opening
Plenary meeting"


8.3, line 37-38, technical: remove the sentence about groups meeting
together.  It is immaterial to the issue.


8.3, line 39, technical: replace "such session" with "Plenary session".


8.3, line 40, technical: the announcement must not only be made one year in
advance, it must be available in a prominent, public place, so that it can
be found with all other meeting announcement information.


8.3, line 40, editorial: replace "much" with "shall"


8.3, line 41, editorial: replace "Such meetings" with "Such sessions"


8.3, line 42, technical: replace ", but should be" with "and shall be"





Ivan OAKES []
Wed 1/4/2006 6:53 AM


A change for the better!


There is a typo "much" should be "must" in the new 8.3 section.




Grow, Bob []
Wed 1/4/2006 11:10 AM




I think this is a bad approach to achieve the objectives.  I think the right
way to address quorum is in the interim WG meetings section, and that
roll-on and roll-off of attendance should also be addressed directly, not in
this obtuse manner.  




Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)[mailto:matthew.sherman@BAESYSTEMS.COM]
Tue 1/3/2006 11:30 PM




Once again some excellent comments.  I'd need to think about how to address
them.  The more important question I have is - Are you for or against the


It is not clear to me from your comments if you are trying to make the idea
work, or believe it should be scrapped on principle.  The details can be
fixed, but I won't bother if people think this is a bad idea.  


WG Plenary have pluses and minuses.  In general it passes greater autonomy
to the working groups which by definition is at the cost of some unity
within LMSC. My opinion is that some groups feel interims deserve equal
status with plenary.  Other groups do not.  This P&P revision is intended to
let WG make the choice for themselves.


There are some areas where I feel it is essential to have commonality across
LMSC.  I happen to feel very strongly about the work the architecture group
is doing.  We also need a consistent process for handling PAR's and drafts.
Key process issues such as membership and voting should have a uniform
framework.  Periodically all our groups should meet together.  But how often
per year the individual groups meet and how many of those meetings are
designated as 'plenary' I don't see as critical to LMSC as a whole.  Giving
WG some flexibility in terms of how they handle these issues may smooth some
of the tensions that exist today.  So I'm inclined to push for this


Anyway, I encourage folks to voice their opinions on this change -
particularly the general concept.  I recognize the specifics will need some
work but let's start with the question of whether the idea has merit first.






Grow, Bob []
Tue 1/3/2006 9:14 PM


I vote disapprove.  This is poorly written, is grossly incomplete and if
approved would introduce significant ambiguity in the document, and futher
divergence between the unifying characteristics of LMSC WGs.


General -- This change attempts to make plenary generic for LMSC plenary or
WG plenary for avoiding quorum requirements and for membership
determination.  There are though 74 occurances of plenary in the body or the
current P&P, most not related to the stated rationale.  A few are qualified
as "LMSC plenary" already, but most others would need to be edited to
clarify that the plenary referred to was an LMSC plenary, otherwise the
ambiguity becomes a problem.


Page 1, line 31 -- At present, LMSC session and plenary session are
synonyms.  This change makes the headings and much of the content below


Page 1, line 43 -- This is an example of something that doesn't make sense
if plenary is generic for LMSC plenary or WG plenary.


Page 2, line 37 -- I don't believe the second sentence of 8.3 adds anything.
Whether or not WGs co-locate has nothing to do with whether or not it is a
WG plenary session.  I also find the final sentence of little value.


Page 2, line 35 -- I find the paragraph awkward.  Ignoring my substantive
problems with the proposed change, I would change for readability as


"In addition to LMSC plenary sessions, an LMSC WG/TAG may hold WG Plenary
sessions. A WG/TAG may hold no more than one such session between LMSC
Plenary sessions. A WG plenary session shall be announced at least one year
in advance; and shall be designated as a WG Plenary session.  The
announcement must include the exact date(s) and venue.

Dates and venue may only be changed during this required notice period in
extreme cases where acts of nature or governments make the venue
unavailable, or prevent attendance of a significant number of WG members."


Page 2, line 41 -- This introduces inconsistency with  What now is
a "duly constituted WG interim"?  It introduces further divergence in WG
practice.  This does not disallow a duly constituted WG or TF/TG meeting to
be substituted for a plenary, and therefore would allow membership to be
gained in as little as 2 months.  


While many believe accellerated attrition of the member list is beneficial,
it would cut the time for WGs holding WG plenaries to nominally 6 months
while leaving those groups not holding WG plenaries at nominaly 12 or 14


One can become a member without ever attending an LMSC plenary.  No
participation in PAR review or other items that unify the groups of LMSC
would then be part of their experience.  This also puts us on the slipery
slope of other items that can only be handled at an LMSC plenary session.  A
slope I'm reluctant to approach.


This also makes it even more difficult to maintain membership in two groups
because of more rapid age out.




David Cypher [] Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:23


   In 8.3 there is a much that should be a must, but really should be a

I hope that this is not the typo that Mat fixed. :-)






Matthew Sherman, Ph.D. 
Senior Member Technical Staff
Office: +1 973.633.6344



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