Re: [802SEC] Fwd: IEEE-SA News Update for September 20, 2007
All:
I was going to wait and discuss this matter with Paul at the Sandards Board meeting. However since we are all involved in exchanging views; It would have been more appropriate if 802.20 were made aware of this woorkshop and even been invited to participate. The false impression that 802.20 is either nonexistant or redundundant results in part from their not being included in forums such as this one. The other reason is that some subtely lead audiences to that conclusion. Aside from all of the other points that have been raised, I would like the lack of an invitation to 802.20 to participate be revisited and enquire as to why the IEEE and or the chair did not think to include our working group.
Arnie Greenspan
Chair 802.20
-------------- Original message from "Geoff Thompson" <gthompso@NORTEL.COM>: --------------
> Steve-
>
> Just thought it would be a good idea and (at a minimum) appropriate
> courtesy to notify the EC in advance if the chair and a significant chunk
> of the EC is going to appear together at an outside event
>
> Geoff
>
> At 10:36 AM 9/24/2007 , Shellhammer, Steve wrote:
> >Geoff,
> >
> > Since I was one (possible the only) person who sent an email
> > regarding the rules I would like to clarify. In no way do I want to
> > imply that we should only follow the rules. My point is that if the EC
> > has some expectation on members of 802 then the EC should make those
> > expectations know. You were expressing your concern that some members of
> > 802 were acting in a questionable way. To me if there is some behavior
> > that is expected then my point is just that everyone knows what that
> > behavior is. I think Bob's email makes sense and sets an expectation
> > that anyone making a presentation on an 802 standard should make it cleat
> > in their presentation that all the opinions are his/hers unless the
> > presentation has been approved by the EC. We might want to even
> > communicate this expectation to the 802 membership so they know what is
> > expected of them.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Steve
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
> >[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Geoff Thompson
> >Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 6:32 AM
> >To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> >Subject: Re: [802SEC] Fwd: IEEE-SA News Update for September 20, 2007
> >
> >Bob-
> >
> >Thanks for your input. I confess that I am a little put off by "the no
> >rules are being broken" responses. As the high level management
> >committee,
> >we are supposed to do a lot more than "just follow the rules". We are
> >supposed to have the judgement and discretion and do the right thing in
> >area not adequately covered by the rules.
> >
> >I admit and realize that I was leaning a bit heavily on the "too
> >concerned"
> >side. Having said that, it is clear to me that in the spectrum that runs
> >
> >from an ex-member of the EC all the way to the entire EC giving a panel
> >at
> >a 3rd party for-profit conference there is a point beyond which our
> >participation is a legitimate issue of business of the 802 EC. The
> >appearance of something being an EC or quasi-EC function is no different
> >
> >from the audience side than a sanctioned one.
> >
> >I continue to be concerned that this event was not even announced, much
> >less discussed on the EC reflector at all by the involved parties. I
> >really
> >hate learning about this stuff via a 3rd party.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Geoff
> >
> >
> >At 01:44 PM 9/21/2007 , Shellhammer, Steve wrote:
> > >Bob,
> > >
> > > I think that makes sense and is very helpful. I agree that
> > >having such a disclaimer in a presentation is a good idea.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Grow, Bob [mailto:bob.grow@intel.com]
> > >Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 12:43 PM
> > >To: Shellhammer, Steve; STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> > >Subject: RE: [802SEC] Fwd: IEEE-SA News Update for September 20, 2007
> > >
> > >All:
> > >
> > >I'll come down somewhere in the middle. I think Geoff is being a bit
> > >too concerned at this point, but I also think some have expressed
> > >opinions that are too loose on making things very clear what the status
> > >of the material presented is. If you read the boilerplate in the front
> > >of our standards, it contains the following:
> > >
> > >"At lectures, symposia, seminars, or educational courses, an individual
> > >presenting information on
> > >IEEE standards shall make it clear that his or her views should be
> > >considered the personal views of that individual
> > >rather than the formal position, explanation, or interpretation of the
> > >IEEE."
> > >
> > >So, especially being an 802 officer, have made it a practice to include
> > >a disclaimer in my presentation (including the above). I don't think
> >it
> > >is enough to simply ignore that many will think someone holding an
> > >impressive title may be delivering an official position. It is much
> > >cleaner to make it very explicit that one is speaking personally.
> > >
> > >I expect that the seminar participants could and should clearly
> >indicate
> > >that they are providing personal opinions; and if they do that, it
> > >satisfies all my concerns.
> > >
> > >--Bob
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
> > >[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Shellhammer, Steve
> > >Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 12:14 PM
> > >To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> > >Subject: Re: [802SEC] Fwd: IEEE-SA News Update for September 20, 2007
> > >
> > >Geoff,
> > >
> > > What is the rule on this? Is there a rule? I know we have
> >some
> > >rules regarding 802.18 representing 802 to regulatory organizations.
> > >Are there other rules regarding giving presentations at workshops or
> > >other presentations? I know Roger was recently giving a presentation
> >on
> > >802.16 in San Diego (where I live) at a local IEEE meeting. Was he
> > >supposed to clear such a presentation with the EC?
> > >
> > > I think if the EC has some expectations on such presentations
> >it
> > >is obligated to document those expectations, otherwise 802 members will
> > >not know what those expectations are, and would be left guessing.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
> > >[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Geoff Thompson
> > >Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 11:01 AM
> > >To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> > >Subject: [802SEC] Fwd: IEEE-SA News Update for September 20, 2007
> > >
> > >Colleagues-
> > >
> > >This announcement troubles me. Although it does not say that it is
> >being
> > >
> > >presented "in cooperation with IEEE 802" there is certainly a strong
> > >impression given (especially since it is being moderated by our chair)
> > >that
> > >this event is sanctioned by 802. I don't recall ever having discussed
> > >this
> > >one way or the other in the EC. Even without any prejudice about how a
> > >discussion in the EC might turn out, I am uneasy about this. I would be
> > >interested in your thoughts.
> > >
> > >Geoff
> > >
> > > >To:
> > > >Subject: IEEE-SA News Update for September 20, 2007
> > > >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:04:48 -0700
> > > >X-Delivery: Level 3
> > > >Reply-To: ieee-sa-exec@ieeestandards.org
> > > >X-Complaints-To: abuse@uptilt.com
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