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Re: [802SEC] Rome decision

While the reputation of the IEEE being an international organization is
desirable, the more important issue for me is the ability for
participants from anywhere in the world to have relatively equal access
to participate in 802.  I don't believe that we can come anywhere near
making a statement with a straight face that everyone has equal access.

It is always more difficult for participants from outside North America
to participate in 802.  The visa issues for participants from some
countries are nearly insurmountable.  The travel time and expense for
non-North American participants is always greater than that of the North
American participants.  We can hardly be considered to offer equal
access to participation in the standards development process while these
conditions persist.

If we want to pay more than lip service to the statement that our
process is open and unbiased, we must hold plenary meetings regularly
outside of North America.   At this point, I would find it very
difficult to disagree with someone that claimed that 802 is heavily
biased toward North American, possibly even United States, standards.
If you disagree, try to prove that participation in 802 is in proportion
to the population of various industrialized nations.  Try to show that
we have any kind of regular participation by participants from
developing nations.

This is not about Rome.  This is about having only a single choice for
the first plenary to be held outside North America, and that choice not
being a particularly palatable one.  We had decided more nearly three
years ago to hold the March 2009 plenary outside North America.  See the
following minutes of the EC meetings:

Item 10.29
Item 11.12,%20

If our only choice available outside North America was not adequate in
some ways, we need to ensure that our future choices are not similarly
inadequate for the 2010 and 2011 meeting slots marked to be held outside
North America.  We should be making the decision on the 2010 meeting
site no later than the March plenary and the 2011 site in July, if we
are to get the meeting site selections outside North America on the same
schedule as those that were shown in the closing meeting for inside
North America.

-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Rigsbee, Everett O
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Rome decision

Matt,  It might be a bit more fair if you had bothered to mention that
the IEEE MILCOM was in Orlando, FL, just another North American venue,
where we just paid $145/night a $400 fee, and had excellent facilities.
The ITU can afford to hold meetings in Europe because it owns the
meeting site, a luxury that we can't really consider unless they invite
us to use their space at no cost.  I would further point out that the
United Nations is considered by nearly everyone on the planet as an
International organization even though they hold all of their meetings
in NYC.  I think your argument that you can't be an international
organization if you don't hold meetings in Europe and Asia is totally
bogus.  I think Roger has it exactly right: that with local hosts you
can get several benefits that help offset the costs and difficulties
involved in nNA venues, but without those you are paying exorbitant
costs for substandard facilities, and very few people get a benefit from

Thanx,  Buzz
Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
Boeing IT
PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
Seattle, WA  98124-2207
Ph: (425) 373-8960    Fx: (425) 865-7960
Cell: (425) 417-1022

-----Original Message-----
From: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Rome decison


While I agree an international organization can stay in one place and
still be 'international' I still think it avoids the question.

ITU / United Nations / Geneva have a special status.  Not many other
organizations have that status.  If you want to select a facility in Los
Vegas and decide we will always meet there I think it would simplify
life for many of us, but I would not be convinced that it allows equal
access to all interested parties.

What matters more to me is that the ITU seems to be able to successfully
host meetings IN EUROPE!  Why can't we as IEEE802 do the same? 

I've gone to ITU meetings.  Conference space is provided separate from
hotel facilities, and everyone is on their own for hotels.  Frankly the
approach works great, and I'm willing to try it in IEEE802.  However we
seem to be clinging to the concept of we need to tie hotel and
conference space together in the same contract.  This seems to handicap
us, and I'm not convinced it's cheaper.  In general I think ITU meetings
are smaller (though I guess stuff like WRC get large).  So I'm not sure
it's a fair comparison.  

But the bottom line for me is that other organizations seem to be able
to hold conferences outside North America.  Why can't we?

And by the way, just prior to IEEE802 I attended IEEE MILCOM.  The
attendance fee for 3 days was $1100 dollars, and the conference hotel
was about $260/night if I recall.  I stayed off site at a cheaper hotel
(about $160 I think).  I had to rent a car, and it was not as convenient
(and by the time I added in parking and car rental not much cheaper
either).  But somehow MILCOM managed to attract about 4000 participants
if memory serves me right.  If once a year we have a more expensive
meeting location, I don't personally see that as a show stopper (it
isn't for other IEEE venues such as MILCOM).


Matthew Sherman, Ph.D. 
Engineering Fellow 
BAE Systems -  Network Systems (NS) 
Office: +1 973.633.6344 
Cell: +1 973.229.9520 



-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Roger B. Marks
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Rome decison


I share your views on this.

Aside from concerns about the venue, the costs, and the lack of a  
local host, I'd like to revisit an issue I mentioned during the  
discussion. I said that, while I would like to see plenaries  
regularly outside North America, I do not accept the argument that we  
cannot be a legitimate "international" SDO otherwise. I noted, as an  
example, that most of the ITU standardization bodies develop  
international recommendations while meeting exclusively in a single  
city - Geneva. Another EC member disagreed with my statement,  
claiming that ITU groups do meet all around the world. Unfortunately,  
I did not have an opportunity for rebuttal during the meeting.

I've taken a look at the ITU-R calendar for some statistics to  
demonstrate my point. The calendar shows 49 confirmed ITU-R events in  
the year 2007. Except for three meetings of Working Party 8F, all of  
the other events were in Geneva. In 2006, the same calendar shows 73  
events. 56 were in Geneva.

Every meeting of a Study Group as a whole was in Geneva. So, while  
the Working Parties - the equivalent of our Working Groups -  
sometimes meet outside of Geneva, the Study Group sessions - the  
equivalent of our "Plenaries" - are exclusively in Geneva.

Although there may be multiple reasons, I believe that Geneva is a  
preferred location for ITU-R meetings because the costs are low and  
the meeting facilities are good. Also, I believe that, when Working  
Parties meet outside of Geneva, they do so with the support of a  
local host.

I think that IEEE 802 would do well to consider the ITU-R example.


On Nov 20, 2007, at 02:54 PM, Pat Thaler wrote:

> Colleagues,
> I was surprised and disappointed by the decision of the EC on  
> Friday to
> choose the Rome venue. While I want to have non-North American, non-US
> (that is Hawaii may not be part of North America but a meeting there
> doesn't demonstrate a commitment to global standards making)  
> plenaries,
> I have concerns about this venue that go beyond the room night and
> registration fee costs.
> How many of us have looked at the on-line reviews of this property? It
> is very isolated. You can start by looking at the reviews on Trip
> Advisor.
> Reviews-
> Rome_Marriott_Park_Hotel-Rome_Lazio.html
> Sincerely,
> Pat
> ----------
> This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email  
> reflector.  This list is maintained by Listserv.

This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.
This list is maintained by Listserv.

This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.
This list is maintained by Listserv.

This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.
This list is maintained by Listserv.

This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.  This list is maintained by Listserv.