Re: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding 802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted classification+++need mover and seconder+++
Paul, I have to disagree with the John Hawkins position because the
decisions are not independent, at least not for me. I would have a very
hard time supporting or voting for any motion that renders a WG Chair
incapable of representing the directives of his own WG. Whereas, if it
were already clear that voting to designate Mark as not Unconflicted
would not disenfranchise his entire Working Group I would be willing to
favor such a motion.
So I still contend that we must resolve what it means for Mark to be
"not Unconflicted" before we can in good conscious vote on that matter.
I strongly object to the notion that we just go ahead and vote, and then
decide what it means later.
I think we could be seriously challenged on just such an action.
Thanx, Buzz
Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
Boeing IT
PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
Seattle, WA 98124-2207
Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
Cell: (425) 417-1022
everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Nikolich [mailto:paul.nikolich@ATT.NET]
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:22 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
classification+++need mover and seconder+++
Tony,
We are in deep weeds for sure and I personally agree with your first
recommendation. Unfortunately, the LMSC EC's request to SASB to dissolve
the
UC-EC in Nov2007 was denied. As I recall, the SASB response to our
request
was the UC-EC must stay in place until the 802.20 sponsor ballot is
complete.
As for how to handle the conflict/unconflicted-ness, I agree with John
H.,
the classification and rights issues are independent. I'd like to make
progress on the classsification, since that is less ambigous. Then lets
tackle the rights issue.
--Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Jeffree" <tony@jeffree.co.uk>
To: "Paul Nikolich" <paul.nikolich@ATT.NET>
Cc: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
classification+++need mover and seconder+++
> Paul -
>
> On reflection, I believe we are in deep weeds here with regard to
> procedure.
>
> We (802) have no procedures in our P&P that define how an unconflicted
EC
> works; all we have with regard to the UC-EC is a set of requirements
> imposed on us by the standards board. When they invented the UC-EC, I
> don't think that the SB anticipated the current situation at all - it
was
> set up when Arnie was still Chair, so the question didn't arise. And
as
> Bob O'Hara was frequently called upon to point out to us, we can't
change
> our P&P simply by passing a motion. So, I believe that the only way to
fix
> this is through the SB doing one of two things:
>
> - Dissolving the UC-EC; or
> - Making a ruling as to what rights an otherwise conflicted Chair of
> 802.20 might have when representing the wishes of his working group.
>
> Or possibly by the EC Chair simply stating how he will interpret the
rules
> with regard to what a not-unconflicted Chair may do.
>
> I would personally advocate the first of these three solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Tony
>
>
> At 16:07 21/04/2008, Paul Nikolich wrote:
>>Buzz,
>>
>>I disagree--we must be consistent in determining the classification.
The
>>determination of conflicted vs unconflicted must be made using the
>>criteria I established in my 3APR email (see extract below). This is
>>consistent with how we have treated every EC member regarding their
>>classification.
>>
>>Once we make the above decision, then we can take the second step.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>--Paul
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Nikolich
>>Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 12:36 PM
>>Subject: determination of unconflicted vs conflicted status of new EC
>>members
>>
>>
>>All,
>>
>>The criteria we shall use in classifying the new EC members as
>>Unconflicted or Conflicted regarding 802.20 decisions:
>>a) The "perception of conflict" is a test for disclosure: is the EC
>>member aware of a fact (about himself or someone else) that would
cause a
>>reasonable person on the outside looking in to believe that the member
had
>>an interest in the outcome or for whatever reason was unable to decide
in
>>the best interest of the IEEE.
>>b) The test for a determination of an "actual conflict" was whether
there
>>was in fact an interest that could prevent someone from making an
unbiased
>>decision.
>>
>>[...rest of email deleted...]
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Rigsbee, Everett O"
>><everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com>
>>To: "Paul Nikolich" <paul.nikolich@ATT.NET>;
>><STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
>>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:46 AM
>>Subject: RE: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
>>802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
>>classification+++need mover and seconder+++
>>
>>
>>
>>Paul, I think you have the right plan in the wrong order. I
personally
>>would be a lot more comfortable judging Mark (and other EC members) to
>>be not Unconflicted if I was confident that they would be able to move
>>and vote for WG directed positions. So I think we need to clarify
what
>>it means to be "not Unconflicted" before we vote on his status.
Doesn't
>>that make sense ??? :-)
>>
>>
>>Thanx, Buzz
>>Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
>>Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
>>Boeing IT
>>PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
>>Seattle, WA 98124-2207
>>Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
>>Cell: (425) 417-1022
>>everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Paul Nikolich [mailto:paul.nikolich@ATT.NET]
>>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 7:37 AM
>>To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>Subject: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
>>802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
>>classification+++need mover and seconder+++
>>
>>Dear UC-EC members,
>>
>>I think we must follow a two step process.
>>- First, let's make the determination whether Mark Klerer is
>>unconflicted or
>>conflicted.
>>- Second, we'll decide on how to handle his rights as either an
>>unconflicte
>>or conflicted EC member.
>>
>>To take the first step, I would recommend the following UC-EC motion
be
>>made
>>by an UC-EC member:
>>
>>Motion: Mark Klere shall not be added to the Unconflicted EC roster.
>>
>>Do I have a mover and seconder?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>--Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Jeffree" <tony@JEFFREE.CO.UK>
>>To: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
>>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 8:23 AM
>>Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
>>802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
>>classification+++need mover and seconder+++
>>
>>
>>>I would second such a motion.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>At 19:59 20/04/2008, Rigsbee, Everett O wrote:
>>>>Paul, I much prefer the solution proposed by Roger Marks, that any
>>>>conflicted EC-members be entitled to propose and vote in favor of
>>>>motions submitted to them as directed positions from their Working
>>>>Group. It just seems fairer and more even-handed. And I have
offered
>>>>to make a motion to that effect.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanx, Buzz
>>>>Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
>>>>Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
>>>>Boeing IT
>>>>PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
>>>>Seattle, WA 98124-2207
>>>>Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
>>>>Cell: (425) 417-1022
>>>>everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Paul Nikolich [mailto:paul.nikolich@ATT.NET]
>>>>Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:46 AM
>>>>To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>>>Subject: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
>>>>802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
>>>>classification+++need mover and seconder+++
>>>>
>>>>Dear Unconflicted EC members,
>>>>
>>>>There has been discussion over the past wek regarding the
>>>>conflicted/un-conflicted classification of Mark Klerer, specifically
>>>>that if
>>>>he is not made a member of the UC-EC perhaps he should be given
unique
>>>>status regarding placing 802.20 WG motions before the UC-EC. I
don't
>>>>believe special status is needed to ensure fair and proper
>>consideration
>>>>of
>>>>802.20 WG business by the UC-EC. A special status will only serve to
>>>>complicate the unconflicted EC and conflicted EC classification
>>process.
>>>>If
>>>>Mark is classified as conflicted, he will have the right to propose
>>that
>>>>an
>>>>UC-EC member place a motion on the floor on his behalf, participate
in
>>>>crafting the motion language and voicing an opinion on changes to
it.
>>>>
>>>>To that end, I'd like to propose the following motion:
>>>>
>>>>Motion: Mark Klere shall not be added to the Unconflicted EC roster
>>and
>>>>shall have the right to propose that an UC-EC member place a UC-EC
>>>>motion on
>>>>the floor on his behalf, participate in crafting the motion language
>>and
>>>>
>>>>voicing an opinion on changes to it.
>>>>
>>>>I need a mover and and seconder for the above motion. Only UC-EC
>>>>members
>>>>may participate in the vote.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>
>>>>--Paul Nikolich
>>>>
>>>>----------
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>>>>This list is maintained by Listserv.
>>>>
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>>>>list is maintained by Listserv.
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>>>list is maintained by Listserv.
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This
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>
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