Re: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding 802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted classification+++need mover and seconder+++
All,
I'm torn. On the one hand, I believe that we must be consistent, and
therefore Mark must be declared conflicted. On the other hand, the
bizarreness of a WG chair not being allowed to move, second, or vote on
issues of importance to the working group only heightens my distaste for
the existence of the UC-EC.
Also, on the one hand, I agree that knowing that Mark would be allowed
to vote on .20 issues under some circumstances would make be feel better
about voting him conflicted. On the other hand, I dislike combining two
separate items into one vote.
As my previous attempts to end the UC-EC more quickly than currently
planned have been met with decisive rejection, I guess I have no choice
but to live with this objectionable entity for the time being. And,
after consideration of the above conflicts, I guess I must support
Paul's proposal for separate votes on conflictedness and on voting
rights of conflicted members of the EC. Ergo, if Paul will allow, I
offer to move the following:
Whereas, Mark Klerer could be considered by a reasonable person to have
a personal interest in the outcome of votes on matters concerning IEEE
P802.20, Mark Klerer shall not be added to the Unconflicted EC roster.
jl
On 4/21/2008 9:56 AM, Rigsbee, Everett O wrote:
> Paul, I have to disagree with the John Hawkins position because the
> decisions are not independent, at least not for me. I would have a very
> hard time supporting or voting for any motion that renders a WG Chair
> incapable of representing the directives of his own WG. Whereas, if it
> were already clear that voting to designate Mark as not Unconflicted
> would not disenfranchise his entire Working Group I would be willing to
> favor such a motion.
>
> So I still contend that we must resolve what it means for Mark to be
> "not Unconflicted" before we can in good conscious vote on that matter.
>
>
> I strongly object to the notion that we just go ahead and vote, and then
> decide what it means later.
>
> I think we could be seriously challenged on just such an action.
>
>
> Thanx, Buzz
> Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
> Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
> Boeing IT
> PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
> Seattle, WA 98124-2207
> Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
> Cell: (425) 417-1022
> everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Nikolich [mailto:paul.nikolich@ATT.NET]
> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:22 AM
> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
> 802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
> classification+++need mover and seconder+++
>
> Tony,
>
> We are in deep weeds for sure and I personally agree with your first
> recommendation. Unfortunately, the LMSC EC's request to SASB to dissolve
> the
> UC-EC in Nov2007 was denied. As I recall, the SASB response to our
> request
> was the UC-EC must stay in place until the 802.20 sponsor ballot is
> complete.
>
> As for how to handle the conflict/unconflicted-ness, I agree with John
> H.,
> the classification and rights issues are independent. I'd like to make
> progress on the classsification, since that is less ambigous. Then lets
> tackle the rights issue.
>
> --Paul
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Jeffree" <tony@jeffree.co.uk>
> To: "Paul Nikolich" <paul.nikolich@ATT.NET>
> Cc: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
> 802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
> classification+++need mover and seconder+++
>
>
>
>> Paul -
>>
>> On reflection, I believe we are in deep weeds here with regard to
>> procedure.
>>
>> We (802) have no procedures in our P&P that define how an unconflicted
>>
> EC
>
>> works; all we have with regard to the UC-EC is a set of requirements
>> imposed on us by the standards board. When they invented the UC-EC, I
>> don't think that the SB anticipated the current situation at all - it
>>
> was
>
>> set up when Arnie was still Chair, so the question didn't arise. And
>>
> as
>
>> Bob O'Hara was frequently called upon to point out to us, we can't
>>
> change
>
>> our P&P simply by passing a motion. So, I believe that the only way to
>>
> fix
>
>> this is through the SB doing one of two things:
>>
>> - Dissolving the UC-EC; or
>> - Making a ruling as to what rights an otherwise conflicted Chair of
>> 802.20 might have when representing the wishes of his working group.
>>
>> Or possibly by the EC Chair simply stating how he will interpret the
>>
> rules
>
>> with regard to what a not-unconflicted Chair may do.
>>
>> I would personally advocate the first of these three solutions.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tony
>>
>>
>> At 16:07 21/04/2008, Paul Nikolich wrote:
>>
>>> Buzz,
>>>
>>> I disagree--we must be consistent in determining the classification.
>>>
> The
>
>>> determination of conflicted vs unconflicted must be made using the
>>> criteria I established in my 3APR email (see extract below). This is
>>> consistent with how we have treated every EC member regarding their
>>> classification.
>>>
>>> Once we make the above decision, then we can take the second step.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> --Paul
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Nikolich
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 12:36 PM
>>> Subject: determination of unconflicted vs conflicted status of new EC
>>> members
>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> The criteria we shall use in classifying the new EC members as
>>> Unconflicted or Conflicted regarding 802.20 decisions:
>>> a) The "perception of conflict" is a test for disclosure: is the EC
>>> member aware of a fact (about himself or someone else) that would
>>>
> cause a
>
>>> reasonable person on the outside looking in to believe that the member
>>>
> had
>
>>> an interest in the outcome or for whatever reason was unable to decide
>>>
> in
>
>>> the best interest of the IEEE.
>>> b) The test for a determination of an "actual conflict" was whether
>>>
> there
>
>>> was in fact an interest that could prevent someone from making an
>>>
> unbiased
>
>>> decision.
>>>
>>> [...rest of email deleted...]
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rigsbee, Everett O"
>>> <everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com>
>>> To: "Paul Nikolich" <paul.nikolich@ATT.NET>;
>>> <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
>>> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:46 AM
>>> Subject: RE: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
>>> 802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
>>> classification+++need mover and seconder+++
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul, I think you have the right plan in the wrong order. I
>>>
> personally
>
>>> would be a lot more comfortable judging Mark (and other EC members) to
>>> be not Unconflicted if I was confident that they would be able to move
>>> and vote for WG directed positions. So I think we need to clarify
>>>
> what
>
>>> it means to be "not Unconflicted" before we vote on his status.
>>>
> Doesn't
>
>>> that make sense ??? :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanx, Buzz
>>> Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
>>> Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
>>> Boeing IT
>>> PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
>>> Seattle, WA 98124-2207
>>> Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
>>> Cell: (425) 417-1022
>>> everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Paul Nikolich [mailto:paul.nikolich@ATT.NET]
>>> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 7:37 AM
>>> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Subject: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
>>> 802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
>>> classification+++need mover and seconder+++
>>>
>>> Dear UC-EC members,
>>>
>>> I think we must follow a two step process.
>>> - First, let's make the determination whether Mark Klerer is
>>> unconflicted or
>>> conflicted.
>>> - Second, we'll decide on how to handle his rights as either an
>>> unconflicte
>>> or conflicted EC member.
>>>
>>> To take the first step, I would recommend the following UC-EC motion
>>>
> be
>
>>> made
>>> by an UC-EC member:
>>>
>>> Motion: Mark Klere shall not be added to the Unconflicted EC roster.
>>>
>>> Do I have a mover and seconder?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> --Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Jeffree" <tony@JEFFREE.CO.UK>
>>> To: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
>>> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 8:23 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
>>> 802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
>>> classification+++need mover and seconder+++
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I would second such a motion.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Tony
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 19:59 20/04/2008, Rigsbee, Everett O wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Paul, I much prefer the solution proposed by Roger Marks, that any
>>>>> conflicted EC-members be entitled to propose and vote in favor of
>>>>> motions submitted to them as directed positions from their Working
>>>>> Group. It just seems fairer and more even-handed. And I have
>>>>>
> offered
>
>>>>> to make a motion to that effect.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanx, Buzz
>>>>> Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
>>>>> Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
>>>>> Boeing IT
>>>>> PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
>>>>> Seattle, WA 98124-2207
>>>>> Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
>>>>> Cell: (425) 417-1022
>>>>> everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Paul Nikolich [mailto:paul.nikolich@ATT.NET]
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:46 AM
>>>>> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>>>> Subject: [802SEC] +++un-conflicted EC motion #4 regarding
>>>>> 802.20+++determine Mark Klerer's unconflcted/conflicted
>>>>> classification+++need mover and seconder+++
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Unconflicted EC members,
>>>>>
>>>>> There has been discussion over the past wek regarding the
>>>>> conflicted/un-conflicted classification of Mark Klerer, specifically
>>>>> that if
>>>>> he is not made a member of the UC-EC perhaps he should be given
>>>>>
> unique
>
>>>>> status regarding placing 802.20 WG motions before the UC-EC. I
>>>>>
> don't
>
>>>>> believe special status is needed to ensure fair and proper
>>>>>
>>> consideration
>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>> 802.20 WG business by the UC-EC. A special status will only serve to
>>>>> complicate the unconflicted EC and conflicted EC classification
>>>>>
>>> process.
>>>
>>>>> If
>>>>> Mark is classified as conflicted, he will have the right to propose
>>>>>
>>> that
>>>
>>>>> an
>>>>> UC-EC member place a motion on the floor on his behalf, participate
>>>>>
> in
>
>>>>> crafting the motion language and voicing an opinion on changes to
>>>>>
> it.
>
>>>>> To that end, I'd like to propose the following motion:
>>>>>
>>>>> Motion: Mark Klere shall not be added to the Unconflicted EC roster
>>>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>>> shall have the right to propose that an UC-EC member place a UC-EC
>>>>> motion on
>>>>> the floor on his behalf, participate in crafting the motion language
>>>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>>>> voicing an opinion on changes to it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I need a mover and and seconder for the above motion. Only UC-EC
>>>>> members
>>>>> may participate in the vote.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> --Paul Nikolich
>>>>>
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