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Re: [802SEC] Plenary organization

I guess the good news is that there is lots of work... A good problem to have...

I'd just point out a couple of (admitedly contradictory) points: 

1. For the vast majority of our members (ie non-EC participants), Monday morning and Friday afternoon are regarded as travel windows (or at least opportunities). It doesn't seem fair that we would take that away from them by filling those timeslots with working sessions. I suspect if we tried, those working sessions would be very poorly attended.

2. The EC closing meeting is, I believe, "dangerously" brief. By that I mean we are at risk of making some pretty heavy/consequential decisions without sufficient debate or discussion. We risk making a mistake one of these days. Also, on at least one occasion, I witnessed some pretty poor behavior by some who essentially filibustered a discussion a vote could not be taken before the mandatory 6pm adjournment. I'd suggest we think of some way to sub-divide matters coming before the EC into "Standards-related" and "Administrivia." We could schedule these for different timeslots, perhaps even virtualize one or the other. Of course this would require some heavy lifting from the P&P perspective, but might well be worth some thought in the longer term.

3. I agree with the sentiment that the opening plenary could be abbreviated or "virtualized" somehow. I find them less and less useful. I doubt I'm alone. And (with my Treasurer's hat on) if we could somehow do away with that huge room (it's the only session we absolutely need that size facilty) we might could save a buck or two.


-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [] On Behalf Of Jon Rosdahl
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:04 AM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Plenary organization

Hello all,
   Just a thought or two...
802.11 gained 3 evenings for a period of time, then we cut out Thursday evening to ensure that we had proper preparation for our Closing plenary and EC presentations.
This worked well....

The loss of both Mon and Tues has been bemoaned by the same folks that complained that they had to meet in the evening, but they recognize that we did gain valuable time in the evening sessions, and like this upcoming session, when there are no Tutorials, it will go open with out meetings of the 802 or WG....not efficient.

I would agree with Adrian that the Tutorials being pushed into Monday and leaving the Tues for the WGs would be a positive move.

I recognize that some folks cut out early on Friday....We have watched the attendance at 802.11 Closing plenaries dwindle over the 4 hours of our closing plenary.
however, that is a function of what is going on in the meetings.....We have put ourselves in a such a place by technically cutting off most real work by 6pm on Thursday, and then it is really a reporting function all day Friday. 
For the EC officers, it is still a full day of work.

I would not be in favor of adding more to Sunday.  the more you add, the earlier you will need to travel and then before long, you leave on Friday to make all the connections in a timely manner....
I would rather push out the back end. I recognize as Geoff does that those that travel west can sometimes get a late night flight out when the meetings do end at 6pm...not always convenient, and not always possible....

In general, I would say that we look at how we schedule the week, and put the work were it needs to be done.  If we need an extra evening, we could always cut the social, thus saving a ton of money and giving the WG an extra
2 hours to get work done.  :)

We have 3 sets of criteria (EC, WG, TG), and only one week to meet them.
No matter how we conclude, no one will be fully happy.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Jeffree" <tony@JEFFREE.CO.UK>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 5:47 AM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Plenary organization

> Adrian -
> Dumb idea or not, we used to run closing EC meetings from 7-12PM for many 
> years; having
> them on the Friday PM is a relatively recent thing.
> I'm absolutely sure that there were some poor quality decisions taken back 
> then, but,
> having participated in both the evening and the afternoon meetings, no 
> higher a proportion
> IMHO than we manage to make now.
> Regards,
> Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephens, Adrian P []
> Sent: 16 October 2008 10:40
> To: Tony Jeffree; STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: RE: [802SEC] Plenary organization
> Hello all,
> I also agree that there is too little time during the plenary week for 
> working
> group activites.
> I wouldn't object to doing more business on Sunday.  We already have
> various preparation meetings,  and this could be extended.
> There's a lot of repetition in the opening plenaries.  The same material
> is presented by different people in the 802 plenary and WG plenary
> meetings.   I think this can be reduced by marking certain material
> within the EC as "for presentation in your WG opening plenary" and
> skipping it in the 802 plenary.
> Many people head home on friday.  I think it is an ineluctable law of 
> nature
> that says this must happen.  I don't see that planning a full day
> of WG meetings on friday is workable.
> I personally am a morning person.   Planning a meeting to run to midnight
> at the end of a hard week's meetings,  at the end of a long day (which
> probably starts with 2 hours of email,  then a pre-meeting, then a meeting 
> ...) is, IMHO,
> dumb.   I.e. we won't get quality decisions at the end of an 18-hour
> working day.   It is close to the "hero" model of process maturity
> (which is close to the worst possible model).
> My recommendations are as follows:
> 1.  Move 802 plenary to sunday pm and shorten it.
> 2.  Reserve only one evening for tutorial slots and,  if necessary,  run
> parallel threads.
> 3.  Keep friday as is.
> My deuce of denarii...
> Best Regards,
> Adrian Stephens
> 802.11 minion (i.e. chair of vice)
>>-----Original Message-----
>>[] On Behalf Of Tony Jeffree
>>Sent: 16 October 2008 09:48
>>Subject: [802SEC] Plenary organization
>>Colleauges -
>>Given the not inconsiderable workload that some working groups
>>are attempting to tackle, I
>>feel it is worth re-visiting once again the question of how we
>>organize our Plenaries to
>>maximize the time available for useful technical work (which I
>>believe, when all is said
>>and done, is why we have these meetings in the first place).
>>At present, with the existing
>>meeting format, I get 2 ½ clear days of Task Group meetings;
>>that is rather less than we
>>need for effective progress. I am reluctant to move the
>>closing 802.1 plenary to Friday
>>morning (as some WGs have done) with the present format,
>>because firstly I doubt we would
>>get the right level of attendance to conduct effective
>>business, given that there would
>>not be technical meetings that day, and secondly it would
>>leave me with no time for
>>preparation for the closing EC meeting.
>>So how can this be fixed?
>>Firstly, Monday mornings at Plenary sessions are largely a
>>no-op in my view. I don't think
>>that the format of the Monday morning plenary meeting is
>>useful to the majority of
>>attendees, and if it didn't happen, I don't believe there are
>>many attendees that would
>>miss it at all. If it wasn't there, we could start our WG
>>opening plenaries before lunch
>>and in my case, we could be off and running with Task Group
>>meetings by early-mid
>>Secondly, we could make the radical move to take the opening
>>EC meeting out of the
>>"working week" altogether, by holding it on the Sunday
>>evening. We already have a Sunday
>>PM rules meeting; maybe putting the two together on the Sunday
>>evening would help us to
>>crispen up both activities. Again, this would help free up
>>Monday time for WG activity.
>>Thirdly, although for some EC members, holding the closing EC
>>on Friday afternoon helps
>>with their travel plans, for others of us it creates a double whammy:
>>1)      We have to stay over until Saturday anyway, because
>>even a 6PM close is too late
>>to get away on the Friday evening; and
>>2)      The fact that the closing meeting is in the afternoon
>>makes it difficult to make
>>sensible use of Friday morning (see opening para - we need
>>some time to prepare stuff for
>>the EC meeting following our closing WG Plenaries, and holding
>>a short Plenary on Friday
>>morning is a guarantee of low attendance).
>>So I would advocate moving the EC meeting to the 7pm-midnight
>>slot on Friday evening,
>>freeing up most of Friday for WG business - finishing the WG
>>closing plenary at (say) 3pm
>>would still allow us to get straight for the EC meeting, but
>>would also give us an extra
>>morning or part-morning for task group work.
>>Any thoughts?
>>This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email
>>reflector.  This list is maintained by Listserv.
> ----------
> This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.  This 
> list is maintained by Listserv. 

This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.  This list is maintained by Listserv.

This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.  This list is maintained by Listserv.