While IEEE 802.11 has had a P&P for along time - and actually they were
modelled after the IEEE 802.3 rules which we've had for even longer - I
think that both these documents are actually Working Group 'Operations
Manual' in todays terminology as they both point extensively to the IEEE
802 rules for the fundamental operation of the Working Group on issues
such as membership and balloting.
Based on this I think there should be only one IEEE 802 LMSC Working Group
P&P that we all follow - as we have today - all of which was moved to the
IEEE 802 LMSC Operations Manual. Each working group is then free - if they
wish - to develop its own Operations Manual to supplement the new IEEE 802
LMSC Working Group P&P. I believe that a Working Group operations manual
would be near equivalent to what we call the Working Group P&P today.
By this approach we have to move the Working Group rules out of the IEEE
802 LMSC Operations Manual into a single Working group P&P - which I
believe we have to do to meet the AudCom requirements for a Working Group
P&P - and then for those Working Groups that have P&Ps move these to be
the Working Group Operations manual. If we take the approach of developing
a Working Group P&P for each Working Group there seems to be quite a lot
of duplication of effort - rather than just one single P&P that we all
In respect to the discussion I mentioned I believe that took place at the
opening EC meeting on Monday in March, this is recorded in the unapproved
minutes as 'Law said that the LMSC rules state that there should be
generic WG rules that are then added to it by the WGs. Rigsbee suggests
that we pick out key people to work on a base WG P&P and individual WGs
can override as appropriate.' not that I particularly agree with a WG
being able to override the base P&P.
As for the draft you have supplied it is indeed a great start to the work
that Mat has to do and I am most certainly in support of using it as the
basis of the work. In respect to specific comments I would like to see [a]
the draft changed to be the 'All IEEE 802 Working Group P&P' draft, not
Working group specific, [b] I would like to see all the references in to
the IEEE 802 operations manual replaced with the actual text from the IEEE
802 operations manual and a change to the IEEE 802 operations manual to
delete the same text and [c] all reference to Working Group Operations
manual removed and replaced with a single statement that Working Groups
can supplement these P&P with their own Working Group specific Operations
Taking the membership clause in the current draft - it states that the
rules can be found in the IEEE 802 operations manual - and supplemental
rules found in the IEEE 802.11 Operations manual. This makes the Working
Group P&P somewhat content free as all it does is points up and point
down. Instead making this the 'All IEEE 802 Working Groups P&P' would
allow us to remove the membership content from the IEEE 802 operations
manual and place it in the this draft.
Hope this makes some sense.
"Jon Rosdahl" <email@example.com> wrote on 06/04/2009 15:28:37:
802.11 has had a P&P document for a long time. As I understand it,
AudCom Baseline was to be used by Working Groups to base their P&P on.
I have taken the .11 P&P and the baseline from AudCom and created the
baseline that has been posted.
As for the "approach discussed in March"....I will have to ask where
was discussed. I have been in all the "rules Adhoc meetings" and it was
a direction counter to what I have taken. I have also provided what I
completed as a possible jump start for what Matthew will eventually have
provide for the EC to approve. Whether we have what I have crafted as
baseline for all, or some derivative is yet to be seen. AS it is based
the AudCom requirement, I beleive it to be very close to what all will
eventually get to review.
I am happy for susggested changes/improvement/critics on what has been
submitted. I believe that as it did start from the AudCom baseline that
been mandated from AudCom, it will be very close to what the final will
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Law" <David_Law@3COM.COM>
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] FW: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating Procedures
IEEE Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method
> Hi Jon,
> As it stands today most of the Working Group rules - membership and
> balloting are two main examples - are contained in the IEEE 802
> Manual - and some Working Groups chose to supplement them with their
> set of rules - however the Working Group rules in the IEEE 802
> Manual take precedence.
> I believe that the approach discussed in March - which I totally
> was that these Working Group rules in the IEEE 802 Operations Manual
> be split out into a single IEEE 802 Working Group P&P that will meet
> requirements of the AudCom Working Group model P&P. This IEEE 802
> Group P&P will then be used by all Working Groups. The Working Group
> then chose to supplement these by a Working Groups operations manual -
> does not have to.
> I believe that this approach preserves the situation we have today
> this is one base set of Working Group rules within IEEE 802 and a
> Group doesn't need to take any action if it is happy to follow these.
> they wish to supplement them with a Working Groups operations manual
> can do so but the Working Group rules in the IEEE 802 level will take
> This approach also keeps the Working Group P&P review workload low for
> EC - as there will be just one set of IEEE 802 Working Group P&P to
> instead on one from each Working Group. It also reduces the risk if we
> have an AudCom audit as we only need to make sure one set of rules is
> conformance with the AudCom model P&P.
> On review of the draft IEEE 802.11 P&P in your email below these seem
> based on the AudCom P&P and therefore doesn't follow the approach I
> described above. I wonder therefore if I have misunderstood what is
> Best regards,
> ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** <STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org>
> on 01/04/2009 20:20:28:
>> Hi Matthew,
>> In an effor to be proactive and get started on this process, 802.11
>> the following starting point:
>> We hope to have our final version ready for approval of the EC at the
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)" <matthew.sherman@BAESYSTEMS.COM>
>> To: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 8:12 AM
>> Subject: [802SEC] FW: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating Procedures
>> IEEE Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method
>> Fellow EC Members:
>> So the fun begins! Please see the notice below concerning WG P&P.
>> groups are further ahead than others in addressing this emerging
>> I plan to start some discussion on the EC reflector this weekend on a
>> path forward. Right now I favor using the Baseline WG P&P and a
>> breaking our WG P&P rules out of the LMSC OM (now enforce), and
>> augmenting the Baseline WG P&P with the material from the OM where it
>> does not conflict. This would then become a global WG P&P for all
>> 802 WG, and it would be up to WG if they want to have an WG OM to
>> specify additional rules (or not). By the way, this is probably a
>> time to revisit how WG operate within IEEE 802 and consider any
>> revisions we would like.
>> I am willing to host teleconferences roughly monthly (consider this
>> tentative notice for teleconferences at 11 AM EDT on 5/1, 5/29, and
>> 6/26) to discuss WG P&P issue. I don't think we need anything more
>> intense that that, and plan to conduct most of the dialogue on the
>> reflector, and at the July Plenary as to a path forward. If it
>> too much of a burden on the LMSC reflector, I will break it out as a
>> private discussion group (with notice to the reflector so anyone can
>> participate) and periodically report to the reflector on recent
>> Please feel free to comment on these plans.
>> Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
>> Engineering Fellow
>> BAE Systems - Electronics, Intelligence, & Support (EI&S)
>> Office: +1 973.633.6344
>> Cell: +1 973.229.9520
>> email: firstname.lastname@example.org
>> From: Yacone, Lisa [mailto:L.Yacone@ieee.org]
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:41 AM
>> To: STDS-WG-CHAIRS@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating Procedures for IEEE
>> Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method
>> The "Baseline Operating Procedures for IEEE Standards Working Groups
>> Individual Method" (WG P&Ps) were approved by the IEEE SA Standards
>> Board on 29 January 2009 and become effective 31 March 2009. All
>> working groups shall update their P&Ps to conform to this baseline
>> document. The IEEE-SA requires that these procedures (Baseline
>> Operating Procedures for IEEE Standards Working Groups
>> <http://standards.ieee.org/board/aud/WG_PandP.doc> ) be adopted
>> with modifications of some clauses allowed as indicated.
>> Sponsors are expected to ensure that their working groups have P&Ps
>> that these P&Ps conform to the Baseline WG P&Ps. The Sponsor has the
>> option of developing one set of P&Ps for all of its working groups.
>> Working groups should check with their sponsor chair/standards
>> coordinator to confirm how to proceed before beginning this update of
>> their P&Ps.
>> The current active WG P&Ps shall be located on the Sponsor's web site
>> <http://standards.ieee.org/board/aud/index.html> . It is the
>> responsibility of the Sponsor (see the IEEE-SA Standards Board
>> Operations Manual, subclause 5.1.2
>> <http://standards.ieee.org/guides/opman/sect5.html/l5.1.2> .) to
>> the policies and procedures of its working groups involved in the
>> technical development work of a standard.
>> The IEEE SA Standards Board's Audit Committee (AudCom) may request at
>> any time to review one of a Sponsor's WG P&Ps and will as a matter of
>> routine begin randomly auditing these procedures beginning in June
>> If you have any questions regarding implementation of the Baseline WG
>> P&Ps, please contact the AudCom Chair Ron Petersen at
>> email@example.com <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> or the AudCom
>> Administrator Lisa Yacone at email@example.com
>> <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> .
>> Lisa Yacone
>> IEEE SA Governance
>> NesCom Administrator
>> AudCom Administrator
>> Ph: +1 732 562 6003
>> IEEE: Fostering technological innovation and excellence for the
>> of humanity.
>> Celebrating 125 Years of Engineering the Future. www.ieee125.org
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