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[802SEC] FW: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members



Please see below.

 

Tricia Gerdon asserts implicitly that the practice of providing access to drafts once they have been superseded

is contrary to IEEE-SA policy – “While the project is valid---so after the project is done, you don't get to continue distributing the draft ad infinitum if standards development is not in progress

 

A number of groups are already doing this,  and 802.11 wants to do this.   I propose that we discuss

in November and consider a motion from the EC to whoever is responsible for allowing this.

 

“The IEEE 802 EC requests that it and its working groups be granted permission to supply copies of superseded draft

standards/amendments/revisions to its participants.   A superseded draft is a draft for a project

that has completed (i.e. published its final standard/amendment/revision).”

 

Best Regards,

 

Adrian P STEPHENS

 

Tel: +44 1954 204 609 (office)
Tel: +44 7920 084 900 (mobile)
Skype: adrian_stephens

 

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Registered Office: Pipers Way, Swindon SN3 1RJ
VAT No: 860 2173 47

 

From: Patricia Gerdon [mailto:p.gerdon@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:21 PM
To: Stephens, Adrian P
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members

 

Hi Adrian,

 

Send requests to the Contracts Licensing Manager, IEEE Standards Association, stds-ipr@ieee.org

 

Tricia

 

 

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Stephens, Adrian P <Adrian.P.Stephens@intel.com> wrote:

Thank you,  Tricia.

 

To whom should we apply for permission?

 

Best Regards,

 

Adrian P STEPHENS

 

Tel: +44 1954 204 609 (office)
Tel: +44 7920 084 900 (mobile)
Skype: adrian_stephens

 

----------------------------------------------
Intel Corporation (UK) Limited
Registered No. 1134945 (England)
Registered Office: Pipers Way, Swindon SN3 1RJ
VAT No: 860 2173 47

 

From: Patricia Gerdon [mailto:p.gerdon@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 6:21 PM
To: Stephens, Adrian P
Subject: Fwd: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members

 

Hi Adrian,

 

With regards " to the participants for *that IEEE standards development project*."  to mean

a) The specific project for the draft--- so those who participated in standards development for the specific project. Note that in 802, that could mean the larger working group because they may review and comment into the standards development process for the task group.

b) While the project is valid---so after the project is done, you don't get to continue distributing the draft ad infinitum if standards development is not in progress. You would have to get specific permission from IEEE to distribute. Check the draft copyright statement which limits to "for standards development purposes only."

 

Hope this helps,

Tricia

On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 2:34 AM, Stephens, Adrian P <Adrian.P.Stephens@intel.com> wrote:

Hello Tricia,

 

At the moment some IEEE 802 working groups are providing access to superseded drafts

(i.e. drafts superseded by their published amendment/revision/standard,  or by a later revision)

to their members.

 

We have had a request to do so in 802.11.   Sentiment amongst the 802 EC is to support this.

However,  I could interpret your email as meaning that you believe this access is contrary to

the IEEE-SA rules.

 

Can you provide me a definitive answer,  or forward this to someone who can provide me

a definition answer as to whether providing such drafts is against IEEE-SA policy.

 

 

IMHO,  it’s a matter of interpretation:

[3] The IEEE-SA grants permission in the IEEE-SA Standard Board Bylaws for an IEEE draft standard to be distributed without charge to the participants for that IEEE standards development project.

 

If “the project” is the working group and all its assorted projects,  then my proposal is aligned to this

policy.  If it is for the specific P802.11xy participants,  then my proposal is not aligned.

 

 

Best Regards,

 

Adrian P STEPHENS

 

Tel: +44 1954 204 609 (office)
Tel: +44 7920 084 900 (mobile)
Skype: adrian_stephens

 

----------------------------------------------
Intel Corporation (UK) Limited
Registered No. 1134945 (England)
Registered Office: Pipers Way, Swindon SN3 1RJ
VAT No: 860 2173 47

 

From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Gerdon
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 10:41 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members

 

David,

 

I would like to remind folks of the following:

 

1] The IEEE owns the copyright of the IEEE draft standards and final approved standards.

 

[2] IEEE draft standards and final approved standards cannot be distributed without the permission of the IEEE-SA.

 

[3] The IEEE-SA grants permission in the IEEE-SA Standard Board Bylaws for an IEEE draft standard to be distributed without charge to the participants for that IEEE standards development project.


Regards,

Tricia



Sent from my iPad


On Oct 8, 2012, at 12:02 PM, "Law, David" <dlaw@hp.com> wrote:

All,

I hope the following clarifies the approach that IEEE 802.3 has followed over the years. I've also included what I believe is the rationale based on the current copyright policy of the IEEE-SA. Please understand that I'm not advocating that other Working Groups do what we do since - for example - not all Working Groups have a subgroup per project as we do - so as always one size does not fit all. I do however support a discussion of this matter at the November workshop as Jon has suggested.

Subclause 7.2 'Policy' of the IEEE-SA Standard Board Bylaws states that 'The IEEE owns the copyright in all Work Products.' and subclause 7.1 'Definitions' states that '"Work Product" shall mean the compilation of or collective work of all participants (e.g., a draft standard; the final approved standard).' Based on this I understand that the IEEE-SA has to grant permission for drafts, or standards, to be distributed without charge.

Subclause 6.1.3.1 'Draft copyright statements' of the IEEE-SA Standards Board operations manual states that 'An IEEE draft standard may be distributed without charge to the participants for that IEEE standards development project.'. Based on this I understand that the IEEE-SA has provided a blanket grant of permission for drafts to be distributed to participants without charge.

To ensure that these drafts are only available to participants 'for that IEEE standards development project' IEEE 802.3 places the draft behind a project specific password. This password is provided to Task Force participants as well as Working Group participants (members, observes, etc) as the Working Group is the parent body.

The IEEE-SA also, once the draft reaches a level of stability determined by the Working Group, makes the draft available for sale through the shop, as well as available as part of subscription packages. The IEEE may also provide access to the drafts to other organisations, one example is the European Patent Office (EPO), the IEEE 802 EC indicated support for this action in November 2005 <http://www.ieee802.org/minutes/nov2005/Minutes%20-%20Friday%20November%2018,%202005.pdf#Page=114>.

Once the standard is published, or for that matter the PAR withdrawn, the IEEE standards development project (in our case the Task Force) is disbanded, and as Pat states, the password that enabled free access to the drafts for participants is disabled. That is the only action taken, the directory still exists, the IEEE continues to sell the draft and make it available in subscription packages as long as it sees fit, and other organisations such as the EPO continue to have access to that directory through a different password.

As far as I can recall I have not been requested by an individual for access to a draft since I have been IEEE 802.3 Chair. Based on subclause 7.2 of the IEEE-SA Standard Board Bylaws above, I would now personally seek permission of the copyright owner before doing so.

Best regards,
 David

-----Original Message-----

From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Pat Thaler
Sent: 05 October 2012 01:47
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members

The 802.3 ones are in an electronic shoe box. The directory still exists but passwords that WG members used to access them are disabled. I verified that by checking some of them and David confirmed. Presumably David can still access them if needed.

Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Roger Marks
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 4:40 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members

802.16 maintains member access, on the web, to all versions of drafts, even after they become obsolete.

David said that 802.3 practice is the same as that of 802.11, but I don't fully understand what that is. Does "retain old drafts" that "are not publicly accessible" mean that they are kept in a shoe box, or that they are readily available to members? Based on the discussion, I'm confused about this.

Roger


On 2012/10/04, at 01:17 PM, Law, David wrote:

All,

 

To clarify the IEEE 802.3 practice - it is the same as IEEE 802.11 - we retain old drafts - but they are not publically accessible.

 

Best regards,

David

 

----

 

From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Kraemer

Sent: 04 October 2012 20:11

To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members

 

Tony et al,

To clarify our practice, we retain old drafts - but they are not publically accessible.

 

If we are attempting to establish an 802 position we need to address policies for retention and method of access.

 

Bruce

 

From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tony Jeffree

Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 2:21 PM

To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members

 

Yes - what Geoff said. I believe this material should be maintained in an accessible state for exactly that reason. It is often the case that drafts contain material that is relevant prior art that is removed during development and doesn't appear in the final standard. So I believe 802.11's policy is misguided in this regard.

 

Regards,

Tony

 

On 4 October 2012 18:55, Geoff Thompson <thompson@ieee.org> wrote:

Adrian-

I believe that ongoing access to drafts is essential for another reason.

That is to provide (low cost) proof of prior art.

For example, there are concepts embedded in 802.9 drafts and standards that are relevant to the current market.

Given that much of the stuff in (especially) old standards never showed up at the patent office

and that patent searches don't seem to be all that effective, we need to have ready access to that material to avoid and/or combat patents being filed or prosecuted against our work.

 

The same is true for presentation archives

 

Best regards,

   Geoff Thompson

 

 

On 410//12 8:56 AM, Stephens, Adrian P wrote:

Dear 802 SEC,

 

A question came up in 802.11 at the last session regarding access to obsolete standards of drafts.

(e.g. drafts of amendments that were subsequently published,  and then subsequently obsoleted by a revision).

The reasons to access such old documents might be:

1.       To avoid paying a fee for the published document (yes,  I know we have Get802 and currently a $5 fee).

2.       For historical interest,  such as documenting the development of a standard for a book or paper

3.       For legal reasons

 

802.11 removes access to such drafts as soon as they are obsoleted by publication of an amendment or revision.

There are perhaps three reasons to do this:

1.       The terms under which access to drafts is provided is to develop the amendment/revision.

2.       Looking at old drafts can be injurious to your interoperability

3.       May dissuade members from purchasing/acquiring/using the approved document

 

I have researched the IEEE-SA rules and can find no statement that says that access to drafts has to be

removed at any time.

 

 

Could I have comments from the SEC members on the following:

1.       Do you believe there are any IEEE-SA rules that prevent providing everlasting access to drafts?

2.       Do you see any practical pros and cons to this?

3.       Do you do this in your group?

 

 

 

Best Regards,

 

Adrian P STEPHENS

 

Tel: +44 1954 204 609 (office)

Tel: +44 7920 084 900 (mobile)

Skype: adrian_stephens

 

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Registered No. 1134945 (England)

Registered Office: Pipers Way, Swindon SN3 1RJ

VAT No: 860 2173 47

 

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--

Patricia A. Gerdon

Senior Manager, Technical Committee Programs
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IEEE – Standards Activities
445 Hoes Lane / Piscataway NJ / USA /08854
p.gerdon@ieee.org / +1 732 562 3811 / http://standards.ieee.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IEEE Advancing Technology for Humanity



 

--

Patricia A. Gerdon

Senior Manager, Technical Committee Programs
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IEEE – Standards Activities
445 Hoes Lane / Piscataway NJ / USA /08854
p.gerdon@ieee.org / +1 732 562 3811 / http://standards.ieee.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IEEE Advancing Technology for Humanity

---------- This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector. This list is maintained by Listserv.