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Re: [802SEC] FW: [87all] Registration for IETF 87 in Berlin has re-opened

   It is my understanding that the IEEE may have already researched
this and found that there is a legal distiction between a "Conference"
and a "Standards Meeting".

A "Conference" is where folks come to get trained and are sold stuff
(products/information etc).

A "Standards Meeting" is where the primary objective is to make
decisions.  Nothing is being sold or bartered.  It is the members of
the group that are coming together.

This distinction is why the Standards meetings in the past were deemed
exempt from the VAT taxes on our meeting fees. and may be one of the
main benefits of not allowing Commercialization during our meetings.

I hope that we can find the proper documentation history/email trail
that shows as a
Non-Profit holding a Standards Meeting that we are still not subject
to the VAT fees.


On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Pat Thaler <> wrote:
> FYI - as this is a topic we may need to consider for future meetings in Europe.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [] On Behalf Of The IAOC
> Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 10:58 AM
> To:
> Cc: Bob Hinden
> Subject: [87all] Registration for IETF 87 in Berlin has re-opened
> Registration for IETF 87 in Berlin has re-opened.
> Registration was suspended after discussions with tax specialists and attorneys convinced
> us that that the rules had changed in the EU and Germany with regard to the impact of the
> Value Added Tax (VAT) on registration fees.
> There is an EU requirement to impose the country's Value Added Tax to registration fees
> where the meeting is held.  Accordingly, Germany's 19% VAT has to be collected and paid
> over to the German tax authorities.
> The IAOC had to decide whether to change the registration fee to add the tax to it, or
> whether to keep the fee in place for the meeting and state that the VAT was included in
> the fee, which action would result in a registration revenue shortfall greater than
> $100,000 USD. After discussions with the Internet Society the IAOC has decided not to change
> the total registration fee for IETF87 because of the complexity of dealing with those who
> have already paid, and those who had budgeted assuming a total fee of $650.  ISOC has agreed
> to cover any resulting yearly budget shortfall resulting from including the VAT in the IETF87
> registration fee.  We thank the Internet Society for this support.
> You will notice a change in your final receipt for the meeting,  It will include VAT information
> and a VAT identification number.  It is expected that final receipts will become available in the
> next two weeks.  You or your employer may qualify to recover the VAT.  We will be providing
> guidance on this matter in the next two weeks.
> We and the Internet Society have learned that VAT is a very complex matter and that expertise
> is required on a going forward basis.  To that end the Internet Society is considering proposals
> to retain a European tax specialist firm to assist us and them in the future.  We will be
> investigating similar issues in other regions.
> This decision to not change the fee is for this meeting only. The 2014 Budget will take the VAT
> into consideration when the fees are set for meetings in Europe next year and beyond.
> We look forward to seeing you in Berlin.
> Bob Hinden
> IAOC Chair
> _______________________________________________
> 87all mailing list
> ----------
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