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Re: [802SEC] +++ EC Early Close Motion: modify IEEE 802 LMSC Operations Manual



I left something very important unsaid – please take this as discussion to fix issues of concern.  we do need a solution to the problem of holding electronic plenaries.  it isn’t going to solve itself.  I believe Roger and others have thought through the issues raised.  if there are nuances missed, lets fix them.

(and James, thank you for at least enumerating your concerns)

 

From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> On Behalf Of George Zimmerman
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 9:14 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++ EC Early Close Motion: modify IEEE 802 LMSC Operations Manual

 

James –

I’ve been hearing ‘oh there are problems’, but haven’t seen any of them stand up to analysis and detail.  Unless we consider an ‘electronic plenary session’ to be held on a different schedule with different rules and operations than an ordinary one, most of your points below are moot and covered in the proposed text.

 

On point 1 -  I disagree with your reading.  First, hopefully we agree that we must have the power to cancel a meeting with less than 30 days notice.  (in fact, we have done that with the March meeting). 

 

So the question is, does the requirement to announce a meeting does not restrict the ability to rearrange the logistics of that meeting.  I submit we have, and exercise, that ability too.  The question is, if the meeting logistics & locations are controlled, at what level of detail would have the meeting logistics controlled?  Is it the country?  is it the city?  is it the hotel?  is it the room? The language already stipulates the times and dates are the same.  The location logistics aren’t really spelled out in our rules, and hence, I argue, can’t be restricted. As long as fair access is maintained, I believe we have met the spirit of the announcement.  Note that meeting rooms and times for subgroups within the same time frame change with less than 30 days notice all the time.  This provision is not ‘null and void’ but may be subject to some restriction and further definition.

 

It seems the key question is whether an ‘electronic Plenary’ is simply substituting a virtual venue, with the same time schedule, for a physical venue.  I at least assumed it was. This is based on the sentence “may decide that the Plenary Session will be held by electronic means as an electronic Plenary Session on the preannounced dates per an announced time zone. “  - note that the venue is canceled, and the dates and times are maintained. This obviates your objections 2 and 3, and 5 (only the venue is changed – so yes, they are the same, by definition.  By your objection, a ‘Bangkok plenary session’  would be governed by different rules than a ‘Chicago plenary session’ – nonsense. ‘electronic’ is defined as just another venue by the language.  (if you want to object to that, it is a different thing)

 

I believe (6) is covered by the sentence “With the exception of electronic Plenary Sessions, all active IEEE 802 Working Groups shall meet in-person (possibly with one or more participants contributing via electronic means) during each Plenary Session.".  all active groups need to meet in person during each (non-electronic) plenary…  the decision to go electronic is at the LMSC level, and they can’t individually decide to meet electronically.

 

That leaves (4), tying to the WG P&Ps.  Can you be more specific as to the problem?  it is still a plenary – as stated earlier, under this language the venue has just changed.  Unless there are specific prohibitions in the WG P&Ps against electronic meetings, this should not be a problem.

 

-george

 

From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> On Behalf Of Karl Blig
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2020 8:50 AM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++ EC Early Close Motion: modify IEEE 802 LMSC Operations Manual

 

All

 

I vote disapprove.  There are multiple errors and problems with the proposal which have not been fixed.

 

1) For example, the phrase "In exceptional cases, with less than 30 days notice if necessary," contradicts the 30 day notice in the P&P and therefore is null and void.

 

2) There is no limit in this for the duration of an electronic plenary.

 

3) The PAR approval process later in the OM is in conflict with a free form "electronic Plenary session" as it has specific times and days.

 

4) Nothing in this proposal synchronizes it with the WG P&P and will cause issues with attendance.

 

5) No where does it say that in other sections the term "Plenary Session" is equivalent to "electronic Plenary Session"

 

6) We had introduced the requirement that a WG meets in person during a Plenary session to avoid the case, which has happened during the past, where a WG skipped the plenary session, holding a call instead.

 

In short, it introduces more problems than it solves.  It was not discussed in depth during any conference call.

 

James Gilb

 

On Thursday, June 4, 2020, 1:09:15 PM PDT, Roger Marks <r.b.marks@ieee.org> wrote:

 

 

Dear LMSC,

The LMSC Chair has designated me to administer the following electronic ballot:

Moved: To approve the following changes to the IEEE 802 LMSC Operations Manual:

(1) In subclause 5.1 ("Plenary sessions"), change the first paragraph:

"Plenary sessions are the primary LMSC sessions. All active IEEE 802 LMSC WGs hold their plenary sessions during IEEE 802 LMSC plenary sessions."

to:

"Plenary Sessions are the primary LMSC sessions. An LMSC Plenary Session is a multiday set of meetings identified as an LMSC Plenary Session by decision of the Standards Committee. The LMSC Plenary Session venue shall be announced at least 30 days in advance. In exceptional cases, with less than 30 days notice if necessary, the Standards Committee may cancel an announced venue and may decide that the Plenary Session will be held by electronic means as an electronic Plenary Session on the preannounced dates per an announced time zone. With the exception of electronic Plenary Sessions, all active IEEE 802 Working Groups shall meet in-person (possibly with one or more participants contributing via electronic means) during each Plenary Session."

(2) In clause 5 ("IEEE 802 LMSC sessions"), delete the third paragraph:

"All active Working Groups shall meet during each IEEE 802 Plenary Session. All Working Group meetings shall be exclusively in-person. Additionally, Working Groups and Technical Advisory Groups are allowed to have electronic meetings to make decisions between Plenary Sessions, but such meetings do not count for participation credit."

(3) In subclause 4.1.3, change the first sentence of the second paragraph to:

"The IEEE 802 LMSC meets in-person during in-person plenary sessions and electronically during electronic Plenary Sessions."

Moved: Marks
Seconded: Law

Details:

(a) The ballot opens 2020-06-04 and closes no later than 2020-06-14 AoE.

(b) As this is an urgent matter, the ballot will be closed once sufficient response is received to clearly decide the matter.

(c) This motion is taken under clause 11.0 of the active (as of 2020-05-22) IEEE 802 LMSC Policies and Procedures <https://ieee.app.box.com/v/PandP-LMSC>. Accordingly, the revision was proposed on 2020-04-27 <http://ieee802.org/secmail/msg24532.html>, more than the required 30 days in advance. As authorized, amendments to the proposal in response to comments have been made, as documented at <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOguhfz71ge0TflrdaAcGGSMc-tGqHb9dQThtXeU2VM>.

(d) Changes would be made to the active IEEE 802 LMSC Operations Manual <https://mentor.ieee.org/802-ec/dcn/19/ec-19-0047-06-00EC.pdf>.

(e) The ballot requires a 2/3 vote of LMSC members. We have 13 voting members, 2/3 is 9 affirmative votes.


Cheers,

 

Roger


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