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Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBD] [EXT] [STDS-802-11-TGBD] Coexistence Assurance Document (CSD) requested for D1.0 WG LB



Hi Rui and All,

 

Rui thank you for drafting the CA document, I think the draft is acceptable, but it could be improved. 

 

Unfortunately, I will not be able to be on the Tuesday 10-12 call due to conflicts, so I will not be there to discuss my proposed edits (see attached).

 

I don’t think any of them are critical, though I do think they improve the overall report. I hope these suggested edits will promote some useful discussion.    

 

Regards,

Joseph Levy

 

From: ** STDS-802-11-TGbd -- Enhancements for Next Generation V2X.Task Group ** <STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Rui Cao
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 8:26 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBD] [EXT] [STDS-802-11-TGBD] Coexistence Assurance Document (CSD) requested for D1.0 WG LB

 

Hi All,

 

Thank you all for the discussions.

 

I have uploaded an initial version of the CA document

https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/20/11-20-1564-00-00bd-tgbd-coexistence-assurance-document.docx

 

Currently, I tried to keep the content to as simple as possible. Mostly includes:

  • coexistence with non-802.11 system, and 802.11p in 5.9GHz and 802.11ad in 60GHz.
  • New enhancement features in 5.9GHz that may affect coexistence
  • Not mentioning regulatory and coexistence with other unlicensed usage in 5.9GHz.

 

Please help to review the doc.

 

Thanks,

Rui

 

From: ** STDS-802-11-TGbd -- Enhancements for Next Generation V2X.Task Group ** <STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Bo Sun
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 4:42 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBD] [EXT] [STDS-802-11-TGBD] Coexistence Assurance Document (CSD) requested for D1.0 WG LB

 

Caution: EXT Email

Hello, all, 

 

Thanks for all the discussion. It's very helpful for the quality of the CAD under development. 

 

And I agree with with Joseph that the priority is that we should provide a complete and simple CAD based on current regulation asap to start the WG LB. 

 

Best Regards,

Bo

 

Original Mail

Sender: JosephLevy

Date: 2020/10/03 01:56

Subject: Re:[STDS-802-11-TGBD] [EXT] [STDS-802-11-TGBD] Coexistence Assurance Document (CSD) requested for D1.0 WG LB

Hi Carl,

 

I agree that if the FCC does take away the 45 MHz from the ITS Radio Service and re-allocates it for unlicensed use, we will probably need to address how 802.11bd will/can operate in an unlicensed band. 

 

But, for expediency I don’t think we need to address it now in the CA document.  Let’s try to keep the document as simple as possible.  We should not speculate on future regulatory changes, no matter how likely they maybe. 

 

I think we should discuss this possibility in TGbd and on the TGbd reflector, but not address it in the CA document until we need to.

 

Hi Ben,

 

I agree with you that if 802.11be is intending to operate in the unlicensed band at 60 GHz as an unlicensed technology, then we do need to address the coexistence with other 60 GHz unlicensed technologies.  However, I’m not sure if 802.11bd is intending to operate unlicensed in the 60 GHz band.  The intent may be for 802.11bd to operate as a licensed ITS technology in the 60GHz band in some regions, if this is the case then a CA document need simply state that coexistence is assured through regulation.    

 

All,

My overall goal here is to provide an accurate and complete CA document,  while keeping it as simple as possible.  As the lack of a CA document is currently blocking the start of the WG Letter Ballot.   

 

Regards,

Joseph Levy

 

From: ** STDS-802-11-TGbd -- Enhancements for Next Generation V2X.Task Group ** <STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>On Behalf Of Kain, Carl
Sent: Friday, October 2, 2020 1:16 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBD] [EXT] [STDS-802-11-TGBD] Coexistence Assurance Document (CSD) requested for D1.0 WG LB

 

Joe, Ben, Rui, Bo,

 

I would like to raise the issue that if the FCC takes away 45 MHz from the ITS Radio Service and re-allocates it for unlicensed use, there may be interest by State and Local Departments of Transportation in operating IEEE 802.11bd as an unlicensed service (especially in that 45 MHz section) for ITS applications that are not safety of life and property related (there are quite a few). This discussion also came up in IEEE 802.18 when the response to the FCC NPRM was written. IEEE 802.11bd is just an amendment to IEEE 802.11, and unless expressly prohibited by the Commission from operating outside of the ITS Radio Service (Part 90), it should be allowed.

 

Also, IEEE 802.11bd is intended to be used internationally. I do not know what the radio regulations are in other countries, but they may also have a desire to deploy 11bd in unlicensed spectrum.

 

 

Carl Kain, PE

Principal Electrical Engineer

 

Noblis |for the best of reasons
2002 Edmund Halley Drive| Reston, VA 22191 | noblis.org
tel: 703.610.1788 | cell: 571.730.8292 |ckain@xxxxxxxxxx 

 

 

 

 

 

From: ** STDS-802-11-TGbd -- Enhancements for Next Generation V2X.Task Group ** <STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>On Behalf Of Benjamin A. Rolfe
Sent: Friday, October 2, 2020 12:25 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBD] [EXT] [STDS-802-11-TGBD] Coexistence Assurance Document (CSD) requested for D1.0 WG LB

 

To Joe's points:

(1) I would agree this is optional, however still worth thinking about.  If the group determines that coexistence is indeed "assured" through regulation, a simple statement to that effect with reference to the specific regulations would be both sufficient and useful.  You may find there are other relevant considerations beyond regulations which are worthy of analysis and useful information to users of the standard.

(2) The rules under which the 802.11bd device will operate is not relevant to the need for coexistence analysis in 60 GHz. There are 802 wireless standards (at least 2) that operate in the band under unlicensed rules, and coexistence is important.  The 802 requirement is to address coexistence with all relevant active IEEE 802 LMSC wireless standards specifying devices for unlicensed operation and so 11bd must address coexistence with 802.11 and 802.15.3 standards which specify 60 GHz PHYs. 

I also recommend the group consider coexistence impacts by other systems impacting 802.11bd operation, as an understanding of the coexistence challenges (and mitigations) is very valuable for implementers and adopters of the technology.  While not explicitly stated, the intent of the rules is to make the CAD a useful process with a useful result. At least, being useful is not prohibited by the rules :-).

IMO coexistence analysis is critically important for understanding how to apply a wireless standard.  Knowing is much better than assuming.

Just another $0.02 US ($0.017€).

Ben

On 10/2/2020 8:30 AM, Joseph Levy wrote:

Hi Rui, Bo and All,

 

Thank you Rui for taking this on.

 

Just to make sure the scope/requirements of the CA document is met, below please find the Procedure for coexistence assessment from the “IEEE 802 LAN/MAN STANDARDS COMMITTEE (LMSC) OPERATIONS MANUAL":

 

13. Procedure for coexistence assessment

If indicated in the five criteria, the wireless Working Group shall produce a coexistence assessment (CA) document in the process of preparing for Working Group letter ballot. The CA document shall accompany the draft on all wireless Working Group letter ballots.  The CA document shall address coexistence with all relevant active IEEE 802 LMSC wireless standards specifying devices for unlicensed operation. The Working Group should consider other specifications in their identified target band(s) in the CA document.  The IEEE 802.19 Working Group shall have one vote in Working Group letter ballots that include CA documents. The IEEE 802.19 Working Group evaluates the CA document, and submits comments on the CA document to the WG letter ballot."

 

Note the CA document is only required to address coexistence with “… active IEEE 802 LMSC wireless standards …” for “… unlicensed operation.”

Though the CA document “… should consider other specifications ...”, it is not required.

 

 

I observe that:

  1. 802.11bd is intended for use in the ITS band or bands.
  2. The 5.9 GHz ITS band is not an unlicensed band and hence, is defined and regulated by government regulators.
  3. Only these regulators will specify what technologies and transmission types are allowed in the band. 
  4. Regarding the proposed 60 GHz band operation I have a question: Is the plan to operate as an ITS device under ITS regulatory rules or as an unlicensed device?

 

 

Therefore my views are:

  1. For the 5.9 GHz ITS band: The CA document need only state that 802.11bd is intended for operation in the licensed/regulated  ITS band and coexistence is ensured by regulation.
  2. For the 60 GHz band:
    1. If operation will be under ITS regulations, then the same statement should be made as will be made for the 5.9 GHz band. 
    2. If operation will be under unlicensed regulations, then the CA document should be based on the CA documents of 802.11ad (IEEE 802.11-10/1025r5), 802.11af (IEEE 802.11-11/177r0), and 802.11ay (IEEE 802.11-17/1288r3).

 

Hope this is helpful, if you would like me to review the draft please let me know.  Hopefully, this will not be too much work.

 

Regards,

Joseph Levy

 

From: ** STDS-802-11-TGbd -- Enhancements for Next Generation V2X.Task Group **<STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>On Behalf Of Bo Sun
Sent: Friday, October 2, 2020 4:08 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBD] [EXT] [STDS-802-11-TGBD] Coexistence Assurance Document (CSD) requested for D1.0 WG LB

 

Hello, Rui,

 

Thanks for your volunteering!

 

Best Regards

Bo

 

Original Mail

Sender: RuiCao

Date: 2020/10/02 13:15

Subject: Re:[STDS-802-11-TGBD] [EXT] [STDS-802-11-TGBD] Coexistence Assurance Document (CSD) requested for D1.0 WG LB

Hi Bo,

 

I can help to draft the CAD document for group to review.

 

Thanks,

Rui

 

From: ** STDS-802-11-TGbd -- Enhancements for Next Generation V2X.Task Group ** <STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>On Behalf Of Bo Sun
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2020 9:17 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [EXT] [STDS-802-11-TGBD] Coexistence Assurance Document (CSD) requested for D1.0 WG LB

 

Caution:EXT Email

Hello, all, 

 

Our CSD document (11-18/0862r3) indicates that a Coexistence Assurance document will be produced. And as requested by the 802 LMSC operations rules, we need to provide a Coexistence Assurance Document accompanying D1.0 for WG LB. The WG Chair indicated that the LB will be triggered once we have an approved CSD. 

 

I added two TGbd TCs on Oct 13 and 16 (following 10-day announcement rule) for the CAD development and approval. If we can have consensus on a CAD by email discussion, then we can run a motion to approve the CAD in TC on Oct 16th. We still have chance to go through the CAD in TC on Oct 13th for editorial modification.

 

I'd like to call for volunteer to develop the CAD and send to reflector for discussion asap.

 

Best Regards

Bo


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Attachment: 11-20-1564-00-00bd-tgbd-coexistence-assurance-document-JL.docx
Description: 11-20-1564-00-00bd-tgbd-coexistence-assurance-document-JL.docx