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Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] MAC PDT: CID Resolution CC50 for Co-RTWT

Hi Giovanni,

Thank you for the detailed explanation and it’s great that we’re aligned in the coordinated AP’s behavior. However, I have to say that it’s hard to get the same understanding unless I read the text multiple times.

To avoid potential mis-interpretation and inter-op issues, I could think of 2 ways to move forward:
1. use the suggested text earlier, unless you see some issue with that
2. clarify that the coordinated AP is the TXOP holder as you said by callit it out explicitly like “In addition, before starting transmission of any PPDU as a TXOP holder, the Co-RTWT coordinated AP shall check…"

Please feel free to ping me offline if a quick sync-up works better for you.

Thanks
Yanjun

On Sun, Jul 27, 2025 at 3:42 PM Giovanni Chisci <00002b657bbbbed7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Dear Gaius and Yanjun,

 

Thanks for the very valid discussion points.

 

After further thinking, I believe that:

  1. The whole second paragraph applies ‘In addition’ to the first paragraph, so the Co-RTWT coordinated AP ‘as a TXOP holder’ has performed channel access for this TXOP
  2. The second paragraph does NOT apply, when the Co-RTWT coordinated AP performs any control response frame (e.g. Ack) as a response to a non-AP STA, and the AP is NOT the TXOP holder à AP can respond in those cases (NOT the TXOP holder)
  3. The only case where I can see the Co-RTWT coordinated AP not sending an Ack frame due to the second paragraph, is the case of ‘TB UL PPDU with control response’ mentioned by Gaius, but in that case the AP should not even initiate this sequence (UL trigger -> TB UL PPDU -> Ack frame)

 

In short, current text does not preclude control frame responses in a TXOP that has not been obtained by the Co-RTWT coordinated AP (e.g. the non-AP STA’s TXOP). In all other cases where that AP in TXOP holder, it should not initiate frame exchanges that will not complete in time (as for example the UL trigger -> TB UL PPDU -> Ack). Therefore, my assessment is that the current text is correct and does not require changes or clarifications.

 

Please let me know if you have further thoughts!

 

Thanks,

Giovanni

 

From: Gaius Yao Huang Wee <yaohuang.wee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2025 8:49 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] MAC PDT: CID Resolution CC50 for Co-RTWT

 

WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.

Hi Giovanni,

 

Following from the below discussion, do you think it makes sense to modify the text to
“any ppdu that does not contain a control response”

 

Best regards,
Gaius

 

From: Yanjun Sun <yanjunsunstd@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, 25 July 2025 7:50 pm
To: Gaius Yao Huang Wee <yaohuang.wee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Giovanni Chisci <gchisci@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] MAC PDT: CID Resolution CC50 for Co-RTWT

 

Thanks, Gaius. Your suggested text looks reasonable to me and please see some minor editorial updates below.

 

Thanks,

Yanjun

 

On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 2:14 PM Gaius Yao Huang Wee <yaohuang.wee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Yanjun, Giovanni

Thanks, Yanjun, for jumping in and providing your understanding.

 

To be precise I guess “any ppdu that is does not contain a control response” would be better?

 

I believe the context of this paragraph is when the Coordinated AP is TXOP holder so there is a possibility that it may need to respond to a TB UL PPDU with control response?  

 

The 11be text on which this is based on is for a non-AP as the TXOP holder so should be fine as it is.

 

Best regards,
Gaius

From: Yanjun Sun <yanjunsunstd@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, 25 July 2025 6:55 pm
To: Giovanni Chisci <gchisci@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Gaius Yao Huang Wee <yaohuang.wee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] MAC PDT: CID Resolution CC50 for Co-RTWT

 

Hi Giovanni, Gaius,

 

Thank you for the good discussions!

 

My understanding is that the shall rule doesn’t include control response frames, as the control response frame doesn’t rely on the CW mentioned in the 2nd half. It'll be good to clarify this aspect to avoid impacts or regression to legacy STAs that transmit uplink data to the AP.

 

Thanks,

Yanjun

 

Thanks,

Yanjun

 

On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 12:36 PM Gaius Yao Huang Wee <yaohuang.wee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Giovanni,

 

If that’s the case, I’m wondering does the second part of the sentence still apply (e.g., for an Ack)?

“””

… shall defer transmission by selecting a random backoff count using the present CW[AC] (without advancing to the next value of CW[AC]).

“””

 

Best regards,
Gais

 

From: Giovanni Chisci <00002b657bbbbed7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, 25 July 2025 5:29 pm
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] MAC PDT: CID Resolution CC50 for Co-RTWT

 

Hi Gaius,

 

Thanks for the question,

I have the same understanding that you have, since it is ‘any PPDU’.

 

Best,

Giovanni

 

From: Gaius Yao Huang Wee <yaohuang.wee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2025 2:15 AM
To: Giovanni Chisci <gchisci@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: MAC PDT: CID Resolution CC50 for Co-RTWT

 

WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.

Hi Giovanni,

 

May I just clarify regarding this text:

“””

In addition, before starting transmission of any PPDU, the Co-RTWT coordinated AP shall check if there is enough time for the frame exchange to complete prior to the start of the R-TWT SP and, if there is not enough time, then the Co-RTWT coordinated AP shall defer transmission by selecting a random backoff count using the present CW[AC] (without advancing to the next value of CW[AC]). The QSRC[AC] for the MSDU or A-MSDU is not affected

“””


I realize that this is copied from 11be but “any PPDU” seems to include immediate responses such as Ack frames. Is that a correct interpretation?

 

Best regards,
Gaius

From: Giovanni Chisci <00002b657bbbbed7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, 23 July 2025 8:58 am
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] MAC PDT: CID Resolution CC50 for Co-RTWT

 

[MAC PDT: CID Resolution CC50 for Co-RTWT]

Dear all,

 

R1 is uploaded on mentor: https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/25/11-25-1177-01-00bn-cid-resolution-cc50-for-cortwt.docx

 

Best,

Giovanni

 

From: Giovanni Chisci <00002b657bbbbed7-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2025 6:47 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] MAC PDT: CID Resolution CC50 for Co-RTWT

 

WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.

[MAC PDT: CID Resolution CC50 for Co-RTWT]

 

Dear all,

 

I prepared a document to resolve remaining CIDs for Co-RTWT.

 

Co-RTWT CIDs (28 are resolved):

831, 894, 1438, 1714, 1868, 1909, 1911, 1995, 1996, 2206, 2210, 2695, 2837, 2838, 3152, 3153, 3154, 3155, 3451, 3452, 3583, 3584, 3711, 3735, 3752, 3754, 3794, 3813,

 

Please find the document at the following location (@Alfred Asterjadhi please feel free to update the link on agenda):

https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/25/11-25-1177-00-00bn-cid-resolution-cc50-for-cortwt.docx

 

Please let me know if you have any comment by replying to this thread.

 

Thank you in advance,

Giovanni

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