Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request: 11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fa

Thread Links	Date Links
Thread Prev	Thread Next	Thread Index	Date Prev	Date Next	Date Index

Hi Shubho,

I guess a counter-argument for second paragraph would that there is MU-EDCA for all the Trigger based UL data transmission mechanisms that a STA follows.

Regards,

Dibakar

From: Shubhodeep Adhikari <shubhodeep.adhikari@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2026 11:22 PM
To: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@xxxxxxxxx>; stds-802-11-tgbn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Sindhu Verma <sindhu.verma@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request: 11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fairness

Hi Dibakar,

There is no requirement that transmission power of non-APs is always lower than APs. Regulations too do not require that. Further, UL OFDMA, MU-MIMO and DRU pack multiple non-APs in the UL and thus, multiply the total power transmitted in any given bandwidth/time resource as regulations limit the PSD per device only. These schemes have been designed to exploit precisely this aspect. In some cases, the power transmitted totally by all UL devices can exceed that transmitted by the AP.

I think the discussion on fairness of CBF/CSR is somewhat misplaced given that the standard already has UL OFDMA , UL MU-MIMO, DRU, uncoordinated spatial reuse, UL triggered access etc. In all these examples, one can come up with an argument that when a device A is transmitting, had device B not transmitted in parallel or in the same TXOP, a device C hidden from A could have transmitted in parallel. Given the amount of overheads involved in these coordinated AP schemes, the focus should be to increase the efficiency of whatever opportunity exists. If the efficiency of resource utilization increases, it benefits all other devices too since they can get more channel access time.

Regards,

Shubho

On Wed, 31 Dec 2025 at 00:09, Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

But transmission power of STAs are lower than APs.

From: Guoyuchen (Jason Yuchen Guo) <000018696e95f088-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2025 6:49 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request: 11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fairness

Hi all,

As Shubho mentioned, in UL OFDMA/MU-MIMO, the collision domain has also been artificially extended when AP triggers multiple STAs to transmit UL data, we can follow the same rule defined there. For Co-SR, although there’s no sounding overhead, there’s still invite/response/ICF/ICR overhead, which is non-negligible, better to keep it consistent with Co-BF.

Best,

Jason

发件人: 顾祥新 (Xiangxin Gu) <000046f9987a2d10-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
发送时间: 2025年12月30日 9:43
收件人: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
主题: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request: 11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fairness

Hi Dibakar, Shubho and Jason,

There is no sounding overhead in Co-SR. I think Co-SR shall follow the same rule as Co-TDMA regarding AC of traffics to transmit.

For Co-BF, we may take more discussion.

BR,

Xiangxin Gu

Institute of Communication Technology

From: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2025 8:32 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request: 11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fairness

Hi Shubho, Jason,

The concern is: CBF/CSR have the same issue as CTDMA regarding the collision domain being artificially extended when shared AP-2 transmits.

Regards,

Dibakar

From: Shubhodeep Adhikari <00000c144a46bcee-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2025 5:24 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request: 11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fairness

Hi Dibakar,

I agree with Jason regarding the justification for CBF overhead. Also you have noted, option 3 in your email (as copied below) is automatically satisfied by CBF.

Not exceed 67% of the time used for in-BSS communication i.e., at least 33% of TXOP used for sharing AP’s in-BSS communication.

This is automatically satisfied for CBF/CSR since the PPDUs are aligned. No new rule needed.

Further, CBF is no different from MU-MIMO, albeit from different transmission sources. There is no restriction on what AC should be used in MU-MIMO transmissions and the only restriction is that the duration of the original transmission must not be exceeded. This is precisely what happens in CBF. Hence, I think the additional restrictions are not necessary.

Regards,

Shubho

On Sat, 27 Dec 2025 at 14:59, Guoyuchen (Jason Yuchen Guo) <000018696e95f088-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Dibakar,

Have you considered the sounding overhead as well as the Invite/Response/ICF/ICR overhead in Co-BF? If we limit the time and AC to do Co-BF transmission, the gain of Co-BF may disappear. As you mentioned, the 3^rd condition is always satisfied, the fairness issue in Co-BF is not that big comparing with Co-TDMA.

Best,

Jason

发件人: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@xxxxxxxxx>
发送时间: 2025年12月20日 3:27
收件人: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@xxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Guoyuchen (Jason Yuchen Guo) <guoyuchen@xxxxxxxxxx>; Sherief Helwa <shelwa@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
主题: RE: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request: 11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fairness

Hi,

On the fairness topic, there are CIDs asking to extend this to CBF/CSR. I received some feedback from few members that they would specifically like to align the rules with that of CTDMA.

Now for CTDMA, the rules are broadly:

The allocated duration is limited to the min (VI TXOP limit, TXOP limit for the primary AC of the sharing AP)

This would be a new straight forward extension for CBF/CSR. However, it implies that CBF/CSR is also to serve low latency traffic similar to CTDMA.

The PPDUs transmitted during the allocated duration are of AC >= primary AC of sharing AP.

This rule would require sharing AP conveying this information to shared AP in the CBF Invite.
@Guoyuchen (Jason Yuchen Guo) @Sherief Helwa please let me know if you are fine with this approach. If so, I will add a field in the CBF Invite frame.

Not exceed 67% of the time used for in-BSS communication i.e., at least 33% of TXOP used for sharing AP’s in-BSS communication.

This is automatically satisfied for CBF/CSR since the PPDUs are aligned. No new rule needed.

CBF TTT members: Please share your thoughts on this.

Regards,

Dibakar

From: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2025 12:51 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request: 11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fairness

Hi,

Thanks Yanjun. I will change the resolution as “Reject” for now but may defer them if I get more objections. So far most of the feedback asks to reject it.

Regards,

Dibakar

From: Yanjun Sun <yanjunsunstd@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2025 11:46 AM
To: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request: 11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fairness

Hi Dibakar,

Current spec text allows background and best effort traffic to use the shared TXOP, which is against the design principle for Co-TDMA to help low-lat traffic. So it doesn’t make sense to reject 6628 and 10376. If you still see split views and want to make progress, can you defer them for now?

Thanks,

Yanjun

On Dec 10, 2025, at 11:37 AM, Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi all,

Based on the feedback, it seems there is strong preference not to make major changes to the CTDMA design. As such, would reject CID 6628, 10376.

Regarding CIDs that are asking for fairness rules for CBF, CSR (e.g., 10187), if we compare with the rules we have for CTDMA, then CBF/CSR automatically satisfy the 33% proportional constraint on allocated time since the PPDUs transmitted by the two APs are aligned in time. We could add the other part of CTDMA constraint that limits maximum allocated duration to min (VI TXOP limit, TXOP limit of the primary AC used to obtain that TXOP by sharing AP) if there is interest. Please let me know your thoughts.

Regards,

Dibakar

From: Samat Shabdanov <Samat.Shabdanov@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2025 5:01 PM
To: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@xxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: 11bn LB291 CR request: 11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fairness

Hello Dibakar,

I would like to provide a feedback on 11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fairness, specifically on

comment 6125:

·         a minor editorial suggestion, please consider using “just above” or “as described directly above”

comments 6628 and 10376 :

·         we have already a general rule in 11bn for coordinated AP(s) (i..e, AC_{shared_AP} >= primary AC)

that is flexible for coordinated AP(s) to follow without violating EDCA requirements for the gained TXOP by coordinated APs.

Why to revisit now (when we already have 1.0draft) the basic C-TDMA framework what members have discussed intensively at early stages of C-TDMA development and agreed upon in the past ?

                             C-TDMA is intended for LL traffic, and coordinated APs will prioritize AC VO/VI to serve during the shared portion of TXOP.

Ironically, the section on fairness (Section 37.27) on which members spent a good amount of time was discussed/developed to support the current model (without additional rules/and constraints on coordinated APs).

Thank you,

samat form mtk

From: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, November 3, 2025 11:27 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request

External email : Please do not click links or open attachments until you have verified the sender or the content.

Hi Alfred,

Please note that I have uploaded 1934r0 to the mentor.

All members who are interested in that section please review.

Regards,

Dibakar

From: Das, Dibakar <dibakar.das@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2025 9:13 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request

Hi Alfred,

Please add the following CR documents to the MAC queue:

11-25-1934 -CR for MAPC fairness – Technical (31 CIDs)
11-25-1935- CR for SCS related text – Technical (34 CIDs)

Regards,

Dibakar

From: Arik Klein <0000177967a59511-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2025 1:09 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request

Hello Alfred,

Can you please help queue the following CR docs to the TGbn MAC agenda?

11-25/1912 LB291 - CR for MAPC element - Editorials 1 (14 CIDs)
11-25/1913 LB291 - CR for 37.15.1 MAPC common procedures - Editorials 2 (18 CIDs)

Regards,

Arik

From: Abhishek Patil <0000297b717f2a04-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: יום ד 29 אוקטובר 2025 23:10
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request

Hi Alfred,

Can you please help queue the following CR docs to the TGbn MAC agenda?

11-25/1835 LB291: CR for CIDs assigned to Abhi - Part 4

11-25/1836 LB291: CR for CIDs assigned to Abhi - Part 5

Regards,

Abhi

From: Abhishek Patil <appatil@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2025 2:19 AM
To: Abhishek Patil <appatil@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: 11bn LB291 CR request

Hi Alfred,

Can you please help queue the following CR docs to the TGbn MAC agenda?

11-25/1826 LB291: CR for CIDs assigned to Abhi - Part 2

11-25/1834 LB291: CR for CIDs assigned to Abhi - Part 3

Regards,

Abhi

From: Abhishek Patil <0000297b717f2a04-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2025 2:03 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request

WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.

Hi Alfred,

Can you please help queue the following CR doc to the TGbn MAC agenda?

11-25/1825 LB291: CR for CIDs assigned to Abhi - Part 1

Regards,

Abhi

From: wangkaidong (E) <00004ea939387e7b-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2025 1:53 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request

WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.

Hello Alfred,

Please help add the CR document to the MAC queue. It resolves 1 CID. Thank you!

23-Oct-2025 ET 2025 1859      0     TGbn      11bn LB291 CR for CID 4983      Kaidong Wang (Huawei)

Best regards,

Kaidong Wang

From: Fang, Juan <juan.fang@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2025 6:36 AM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request
Importance: High

Hi Alfred,

Please help to add following to the PHY queue, it has 8 CIDs.

22-Oct-2025 ET

2025

1837

1

TGbn

PHY-lb291-CIDs_subclause_38.3.15.12_ELR_SIG

intel

22-Oct-2025 18:29:52 ET

Download, Revise

Thanks,

Juan

From: Gaurang Naik <0000305a2f8ce933-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2025 2:59 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request

Hi Alfred,

Pls add the following to the MAC queue. It resolves 15 CIDs.

17-Oct-2025 ET

2025

1820

0

TGbn

LB291: CR for CIDs on UHR Parameters Update element - part 1

Gaurang Naik (Qualcomm)

All, please let me know if you have any feedback.

Thanks

Gaurang

From: Gaurang Naik <gnaik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2025 12:09 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;ross.yujian@xxxxxxxxxx <ross.yujian@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: 11bn LB291 CR request

Hi Alfred,

Please add the following CR document to the MAC queue. It resolves 23 CIDs.

2025

1816

0

TGbn

LB291: CR for CIDs on UHR Mode Change element - part 1

Gaurang Naik (Qualcomm)

Thanks

Gaurang

From: Yujian (Ross Yu) <00001792b51ef4ea-dmarc-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2025 6:15 PM
To: STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <STDS-802-11-TGBN@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [STDS-802-11-TGBN] 11bn LB291 CR request

WARNING: This email originated from outside of Qualcomm. Please be wary of any links or attachments, and do not enable macros.

Hi Alfred,

Please add the following CR documents into the queue, it contains 20 editorial CIDs.

https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/25/11-25-1791-00-00bn-lb291-editorial-comments-part-1.docx

regards

于健 Ross Jian Yu

Huawei Technologies

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-11-TGBN list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-11-TGBN&A=1