Re: [STDS-802-11-TGAX] Discussion on MU cascading sequence on Sept 3 cal

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Hello Ming,

Thanks for checking.

The summary is as follows:

My position is to

- change the first sentence in 26.5.3 MU cascading sequence to “An MU cascading sequence is a frame exchange sequence between an AP and one or more non-AP STAs in which the AP, within a single PPDU, acknowledges one or more frames from a STA, and triggers the STA for a further UL transmission.",

- add a sentence, “The MU cascading sequence may include one or more QoS Data frames with ack policy HTPE Ack and/or Management frame soliciting acknowledgement together with a triggering frame.”, at the beginning of the paragraph that starts with “The MU cascading sequence may have a different set of transmitters in HE TB PPDUs …” in 26.5.3, and

- delete “The A-MPDU may contain other MPDUs, subject to the rules in 26.6 (A-MPDU operation in an HE PPDU).” in 26.5.3. ß I am open with this.

Mark’s position is to

- add “NOTE—An A-MPDU sent by an AP in an MU cascading sequence typically includes, in addition to the acknowledgement and triggering frames, one or more QoS Data frames with ack policy HETP Ack and/or a Management frame soliciting acknowledgement, subject to the rules in 26.6.” (probably between the last 3^rd and 2^nd paragraph) in 26.5.3, and

- delete “The A-MPDU may contain other MPDUs, subject to the rules in 26.6 (A-MPDU operation in an HE PPDU).” in 26.5.3.

Best regards

tomo

From: Ganming (Ming) <ming.gan@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 11:48 AM
To: adachi tomoko(足立朋子 ○ＲＤＣ□ＩＴ研○ＷＳＬ) <tomo.adachi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGAX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: 答复: Discussion on MU cascading sequence on Sept 3 call

Hello Tomo

Is this just a note? In previous email, I saw that you guys want to delete “The A-MPDU may contain other MPDUs, subject to the rules in 26.6 (A-MPDU operation in an HE PPDU)”. Is there any update for this removement.

Best wishes

Ming Gan

发件人: *** 802.11 TGax - HEW - High Efficiency WLAN *** [mailto:STDS-802-11-TGAX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 代表 Tomo Adachi
发送时间: 2020年9月11日 17:32
收件人: STDS-802-11-TGAX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
主题: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGAX] Discussion on MU cascading sequence on Sept 3 call

Ohayou gozaimasu, Mark-san,

OK, then how about:

NOTE—An A-MPDU sent by an AP in an MU cascading sequence typically includes, in addition to the acknowledgement and triggering frames, one or more QoS Data frames with ack policy HETP Ack and/or a Management frame soliciting acknowledgement, subject to the rules in 26.6.

A note has a risk on being deleted in the future…

If Liwen and others are comfortable with the above in combination with the change in the first sentence in 26.5.3, I’m fine.

Yoroshiku onegai shimasu.

tomo

From: Mark Rison <m.rison@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 8:57 PM
To: adachi tomoko(足立朋子 ○ＲＤＣ□ＩＴ研○ＷＳＬ) <tomo.adachi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGAX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Discussion on MU cascading sequence on Sept 3 call

Ohayou gozaimasu Tomo-san,

My second proposed sentence is meant to explain that DL data/management transmission (that requires acknowledgement) can be built upon the MU cascading sequence.

Ming said that it is a typical case. From the conversation with Liwen and Robert, I think they also think the same.

And by changing the first sentence in 26.5.3 to focus on the essential (acknowledging while triggering further UL transmission), the variation to the sequence should be explained.

So, making it to a note and using “might” is still weak.

OK, then how about:

Focusing only at an A-MPDU, DL Data + TF, it is true that it can be transmitted outside MU cascading.

But thinking of the following, the first A-MPDU from the AP is one of the components of the MU cascading sequence.

AP[TF(basic)+Data] – STAs[BA+Data] – AP[BA+TF(MU-BAR)+Data] – STAs[BA]

The 3^rd A-MPDU from the AP and the previous 2^nd A-MPDUs from the STAs are definitely within the MU cascading.

But to let the 2^nd A-MPDUs transmitted from the STAs, the 1^st A-MPDU from the AP is needed.

This kind of thinking matches with Figure 26-5 in 26.5.3.

I'm not entirely following you here, because in the sequence you gave

there is no "3^rd A-MPDU from the AP". Figure 26-5 suggests that an MU cascading

sequence includes the initial A-MPDU from the AP (even though this does not

include an ack) but does not include the final A-MPDU from the AP (which

has the final acks).

Note that up to

AP[TF(basic)+Data] – STAs[BA+Data]

you can do this without MU cascading, and if the AP follows this with just an ack,

it's not an MU cascading sequence (correct?).

Yoroshiku onegaishimasu,

Mark

Mark RISON, Standards Architect, WLAN English/Esperanto/Français

Samsung Cambridge Solution Centre Tel: +44 1223 434600

Innovation Park, Cambridge CB4 0DS Fax: +44 1223 434601

ROYAUME UNI WWW: http://www.samsung.com/uk

From: *** 802.11 TGax - HEW - High Efficiency WLAN *** <STDS-802-11-TGAX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Tomo Adachi
Sent: Tuesday, 8 September 2020 02:42
To: STDS-802-11-TGAX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [STDS-802-11-TGAX] Discussion on MU cascading sequence on Sept 3 call

Ohayou gozaimasu to you, Mark-san.

My second proposed sentence is meant to explain that DL data/management transmission (that requires acknowledgement) can be built upon the MU cascading sequence.

Ming said that it is a typical case. From the conversation with Liwen and Robert, I think they also think the same.

And by changing the first sentence in 26.5.3 to focus on the essential (acknowledging while triggering further UL transmission), the variation to the sequence should be explained.

So, making it to a note and using “might” is still weak.

Focusing only at an A-MPDU, DL Data + TF, it is true that it can be transmitted outside MU cascading.

But thinking of the following, the first A-MPDU from the AP is one of the components of the MU cascading sequence.

AP[TF(basic)+Data] – STAs[BA+Data] – AP[BA+TF(MU-BAR)+Data] – STAs[BA]

The 3^rd A-MPDU from the AP and the previous 2^nd A-MPDUs from the STAs are definitely within the MU cascading.

But to let the 2^nd A-MPDUs transmitted from the STAs, the 1^st A-MPDU from the AP is needed.

This kind of thinking matches with Figure 26-5 in 26.5.3.

Yoroshiku onegai shimasu.

tomo

From: Mark Rison <m.rison@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2020 7:29 PM
To: adachi tomoko(足立朋子 ○ＲＤＣ□ＩＴ研○ＷＳＬ) <tomo.adachi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGAX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; liwen.chu@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Discussion on MU cascading sequence on Sept 3 call

Konbanwa Tomo-san,

I don’t want to change the second proposed sentence into a note.

Although 26.6 refers to tables in 9.7.3, it is not explicitly saying about the bi-directional case.

Note that the aggregation of the acknowledgement and triggering frame is included in the tables in 9.7.3, but it is only for the MU cascading sequence. So, it is the same level with that.

The downlink data especially in the middle of the sequence together with the acknowledgement and the triggering frames is allowed only for the MU cascading sequence.

I must admit I'm not quite sure what you mean here. What does "same level" mean here?

Yes, DL data + ack + TF is only allowed for MU casc, but that's because ack+TF is only allowed for MU casc, even if there's no DL data.

In contrast, DL data + TF is allowed even if MU casc is not supported.

Would

NOTE—An A-MPDU sent by an AP in an MU cascading sequence might include, in addition to the acknowledgement and triggering frames, one or more QoS Data frames with ack policy HETP Ack and/or a Management frame soliciting acknowledgement, subject to the rules in 26.6.

be better for you?

Yoroshiku onegaishimasu,

Mark

Mark RISON, Standards Architect, WLAN English/Esperanto/Français

Samsung Cambridge Solution Centre Tel: +44 1223 434600

Innovation Park, Cambridge CB4 0DS Fax: +44 1223 434601

ROYAUME UNI WWW: http://www.samsung.com/uk

From: tomo.adachi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <tomo.adachi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, 7 September 2020 01:29
To: Mark Rison <m.rison@xxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGAX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; liwen.chu@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Discussion on MU cascading sequence on Sept 3 call

Liwen, Robert,

Please provide your comments (agreeing or objecting to my response below, whatever is fine).

Hello Mark-san,

Welcome back!

For the change in the first sentence, your point makes sense. I’m fine with

- Change the first sentence in 26.5.3 MU cascading sequence to “An MU cascading sequence is a frame exchange sequence between an AP and one or more non-AP STAs in which the AP, within a single PPDU, acknowledges one or more frames from a STA, and triggers the STA for a further UL transmission."

I’m fine with deleting “The A-MPDU may contain other MPDUs, subject to the rules in 26.6 (A-MPDU operation in an HE PPDU).”.

But I don’t want to change the second proposed sentence into a note.

Although 26.6 refers to tables in 9.7.3, it is not explicitly saying about the bi-directional case.

Note that the aggregation of the acknowledgement and triggering frame is included in the tables in 9.7.3, but it is only for the MU cascading sequence. So, it is the same level with that.

The downlink data especially in the middle of the sequence together with the acknowledgement and the triggering frames is allowed only for the MU cascading sequence.

Best regards,

tomo

From: Mark Rison <m.rison@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 4, 2020 7:21 PM
To: adachi tomoko(足立朋子 ○ＲＤＣ□ＩＴ研○ＷＳＬ) <tomo.adachi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; STDS-802-11-TGAX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; liwen.chu@xxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Discussion on MU cascading sequence on Sept 3 call

- Change the first sentence in 26.5.3 MU cascading sequence to “An MU cascading sequence is a frame exchange sequence between an AP and one or more non-AP STAs in which the AP, within a single PPDU, acknowledges one or more frames in an UL transmission from a STA, and triggers the STA for a further UL transmission."

I'm basically OK with this, but on reflection maybe I would delete "in an UL

transmission" since a transmission to an AP must by definition be UL, so having

those words sows confusion.

- Add a sentence, “The MU cascading sequence may include one or more QoS Data frames with ack policy HTPE Ack and/or Management frame soliciting acknowledgement together with a triggering frame.”, at the beginning of the paragraph that starts with “The MU cascading sequence may have a different set of transmitters in HE TB PPDUs …” in 26.5.3.

I think that if we add such a sentence, we should delete

The A-MPDU may contain other MPDUs, subject to the rules in 26.6 (A-MPDU operation in

an HE PPDU).

in the previous para, since it's basically saying the same thing with

different level of detail. However, it also seems to me that this new

sentence is not anything new, just a reminder of existing normative

material, so I think it should be a:

NOTE—An A-MPDU sent by an AP in an MU cascading sequence might include one or more QoS Data frames with ack policy HETP Ack and/or a Management frame soliciting acknowledgement, subject to the rules in 26.6.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark RISON, Standards Architect, WLAN English/Esperanto/Français

Samsung Cambridge Solution Centre Tel: +44 1223 434600

Innovation Park, Cambridge CB4 0DS Fax: +44 1223 434601

ROYAUME UNI WWW: http://www.samsung.com/uk

From: *** 802.11 TGax - HEW - High Efficiency WLAN *** <STDS-802-11-TGAX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Tomo Adachi
Sent: Friday, 4 September 2020 02:01
To: STDS-802-11-TGAX@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [STDS-802-11-TGAX] Discussion on MU cascading sequence on Sept 3 call

Hi all,

We had a discussion on the MU cascading sequence on today’s TGax call.

The final direction there was as follows:

- Change the first sentence in 26.5.3 MU cascading sequence to “An MU cascading sequence is a frame exchange sequence between an AP and one or more non-AP STAs in which the AP, within a single PPDU, acknowledges one or more frames in an UL transmission from a STA, and triggers the STA for a further UL transmission."

The latter modification was added due to Liwen’s request.

And there were no further comments during the call.

Comments are welcome, especially from those that didn’t attend the call today.

It will be on the agenda again on Sept. 17 call.

Best regards,

tomo

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