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RE: [802.21] [Mipshop] Re: Architectural Considerations for Handover InformationServices (was: Re: CARD Discussion Query Discussion)



Hi Subir,

 

Sure scope of 802.21 is broader than existing mobility protocol. Who is denying that?  

Btw, no one is opposed to the possibility of enhancing any mobility protocol or defining new protocol if required.  

Also, what is wrong about sharing view of 802.21 when MIPSHOP is going to define a protocol that would cater need of

802.21 itself?  Also, please note that there was question about XML versus TLV encoding in MIPSHOP discussion.

Straw poll was mentioned in that context. See below the email thread.

 

Regards,

Ajoy

 

 

From: Subir Das [mailto:subir@RESEARCH.TELCORDIA.COM]
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 3:59 PM
To: STDS-802-21@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802.21] [Mipshop] Re: Architectural Considerations for Handover InformationServices (was: Re: CARD Discussion Query Discussion)

 

Why are we discussing .21 straw poll here?  I think we are not addressing the point
that Mipshop chairs wanted to know from .21 folks about their charter (in particular
.21 related text). Instead, we are discussing many other things that are not very
relevant at this stage, IMO.  I think  Michael Williams, vice chair of .21 has nicely
stated the 802.21's objectives. I agree with him and to me  also the scope of  .21 IS 
is broader than any specific mobility protocol related IS.     

Regards,
-Subir

 

 

I also think simple TLV based approach should be good.

 

Regards,

Ajoy

 

-----Original Message-----

From: mipshop-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mipshop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gupta, Vivek G

Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 8:01 AM

To: James Kempf; Yoshihiro Ohba

Cc: mipshop@ietf.org; gabriel_montenegro_2000@yahoo.com; Rajeev Koodli; Petrescu Alexandru-AAP021

Subject: RE: [Mipshop] Re: Architectural Considerations for Handover InformationServices (was: Re: CARD Discussion Query Discussion)

 

 

 

I agree with most of James' comments here.

Queries can be implemented in many ways and that's why I am not sure we need to *standardize* a particular/specific query language/mechanism.

Having something simple like just TLV as a starting point for different IEs allows others to build on top of this and come up with appropriate mechanisms as necessary.

 

BR,

-Vivek

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: mipshop-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mipshop-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of James Kempf

Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 3:58 PM

To: Yoshihiro Ohba

Cc: mipshop@ietf.org; gabriel_montenegro_2000@yahoo.com; Rajeev Koodli; Petrescu Alexandru-AAP021

Subject: [Mipshop] Re: Architectural Considerations for Handover InformationServices (was: Re: CARD Discussion Query Discussion)

 

> It is obviously more hard and inefficient for the client to process

> high volume of raw data provided by the networks to extract a piece of

> information in which the mobile is interested and choose an

> appropriate network, than to construct a semantic query to retrieve

> only necessary information it is really interested in.  The raw data

> can be order of hundred kilobytes if there are 10 MAC types each has

> 20 or more neighboring point of attachments each advertising hundreds

> of bytes of information and most of the data could be just garbage and

> for the client and it is wastful in terms of both bandwidth and

> processing resources.  If the mobile is moving at a high-speed, then

> information on "neighbors of neighbors" needs to be obtained to

> proactively make handover decisions, then the information volume can

> be more.

 

But at 100 Mbps (802.11n speed) 100K is just  1 msec. Even at 11 Mbps, its still only 100 msec. if there's no contention for the link. It's just not a problem with today's bandwidths, IMHO. We're not talking about 9.6 kbps links anymore. And I'm not saying that there should be no query language, just that it should be simple.

 

>> Since I don't think typical users want to be bothered with specifying

>> the details of querying for handover services information,

it

>> seems that automatic query construction would be required. Most users

 

>> want

>> some kind of symbolic or summary information, if they need to be

involved

>> in an intertechnology handover decision.

> I believe automatic query construction can be made for any query

> methods.

 

Well, I know (from having implemented it with SLP) that it is hard. It is much easier to haul over what you need and process it locally. What happens is the query typically ends up getting stuff you don't want anyway, regardless of how careful you are in constructing it, so you typically need to postprocess anyway. So why bother to have all the code and complexity of trying to do the automatic query construction? Application developers then don't bother to use the complex query language, so you end up having this substantial chunk of code in the protocol processing that isn't used most of the time.

 

>> 

>> It is much easier to just ask for the available information, then do

the

>> processing on the client. I can't see the amount of information on

>> handover services being so large that it would be unreasonable to

>> send over

the

>> wireless link, especially given the trend toward increased bandwidth.

>> 

>> >>I actually mean "using complex query semantics" not "full text".

>> >>Systems

>> >>with complex query semantics in the network haven't been very

>> >>successful in the network information services area. For example,

>> >>DNS has very

simple

>> >>query semantics. LDAP has very complex query semantics. People

prefer

>> >>DNS.

>> >>Query semantics is naturally not the only reason why they prefer

DNS,

>> >>of

>> >>course, but having complex query semantics has not proved such a

>> >>compelling attraction to motivate people to use LDAP for directory

>> >>services instead of DNS (though LDAP was for a time considered to

>> >>be a possible

successor

>> >>to

>> >>DNS). There are other examples I could cite, and I don't think we

need

>> >>to

>> >>get into a debate here about this particular example. For this

reason,

>> >>I

>> >>believe that having a simple query semantics, using keywords or the

 

>> >>like,

>> >>is a better solution than complex queries.

>> >

>> >I believe a solution depends on the detailed requirements on the

>> >service provided by it, not directly on the area the service belongs

>> >to.

>> >

>> 

>> I'm not sure I understand your point. What do you mean by "the area

the

>> service belongs"?

> I mean the area of network information services.

> BTW, I think this kind of discussion should be done in 802.21 where

> Information Service for heterogenious handovers is being defined.

 

No, it needs to be done here too. You're claiming that you want an XML

protocol with complex query language. I disagree, based on my experience

 

with SLP and LDAP, that this is really any value in a system-level

application like network information services. Regardless of what 802.21

 

wants, we need something that provides network information for FMIP, and

if

we are going to try to get the two applications to work together, we

need to

come up with a protocol that satisfies both.

 

Anybody else have an opinion?

 

            jak

 

 

 

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Mipshop mailing list

Mipshop@ietf.org

https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mipshop

 

_______________________________________________

Mipshop mailing list

Mipshop@ietf.org

https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mipshop

 

 

 




Singh Ajoy-ASINGH1 wrote:

Hi Michael, 
 
I think the issue of TLV and XML was discussed during 802.21 meeting.
But it appears to me that more folks supported the idea of TLV in last
802.21 meeting. I guess there was straw poll as well. Do you have any
result of straw poll? It may be good data point about 802.21's view
about XML versus TLV. 
 
Regards,
Ajoy 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: mipshop-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mipshop-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Michael.G.Williams@nokia.com
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 6:38 PM
To: Kempf@docomolabs-usa.com; yohba@tari.toshiba.com
Cc: mipshop@ietf.org; gabriel_montenegro_2000@yahoo.com;
rajeev@iprg.nokia.com; Petrescu Alexandru-AAP021
Subject: RE: [Mipshop] Re: Architectural Considerations for Handover
InformationServices (was: Re: CARD Discussion Query Discussion)
 
 Colleagues,
 
A couple of points regarding the issue of chartering / standardizing for
FMIP needs, and getting .21 & MIPSHOP to work together...
 
We are at the draft stage in 802.21 and need proposals to modify the
draft.
 
.21 is counting on the solution in the IETF to be
compatible/interoperable with the IEEE solution. Sorry to be so high
level on that statement.
 
.21 requires an IS solution that solves problems for more than just
FMIP.
 
Perhaps the issues of IE representation and query language can be
separated to some degree? For example, if an alternative query language
exists today that would be useful, could it be used against the XML
representation?
 
.21 has expressed needs for extensibility and flexibility. The approach
of schemas and dynamic semantic agreements is one way to enable those
traits.
 
The issues of bandwidth & latency have been raised in both fora, but do
we have the empirical support for both sides of the issue?
 
Best Regards,
Michael
 
-----Original Message-----
From: mipshop-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:mipshop-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of ext James Kempf
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 3:58 PM
To: Yoshihiro Ohba
Cc: mipshop@ietf.org; gabriel_montenegro_2000@yahoo.com; Rajeev Koodli;
Petrescu Alexandru-AAP021
Subject: [Mipshop] Re: Architectural Considerations for Handover
InformationServices (was: Re: CARD Discussion Query Discussion)
 
  
It is obviously more hard and inefficient for the client to process 
high volume of raw data provided by the networks to extract a piece of
    
 
  
information in which the mobile is interested and choose an 
appropriate network, than to construct a semantic query to retrieve 
only necessary information it is really interested in.  The raw data 
can be order of hundred kilobytes if there are 10 MAC types each has 
20 or more neighboring point of attachments each advertising hundreds 
of bytes of information and most of the data could be just garbage and
    
 
  
for the client and it is wastful in terms of both bandwidth and 
processing resources.  If the mobile is moving at a high-speed, then 
information on "neighbors of neighbors" needs to be obtained to 
proactively make handover decisions, then the information volume can 
be more.
 
    
 
But at 100 Mbps (802.11n speed) 100K is just  1 msec. Even at 11 Mbps,
its still only 100 msec. if there's no contention for the link. It's
just not a problem with today's bandwidths, IMHO. We're not talking
about 9.6 kbps links anymore. And I'm not saying that there should be no
query language, just that it should be simple.
 
  
Since I don't think typical users want to be bothered with specifying
      
 
  
the details of querying for handover services information, it seems 
that automatic query construction would be required. Most users want 
some kind of symbolic or summary information, if they need to be 
involved in an intertechnology handover decision.
      
I believe automatic query construction can be made for any query 
methods.
 
    
 
Well, I know (from having implemented it with SLP) that it is hard. It
is much easier to haul over what you need and process it locally. What
happens is the query typically ends up getting stuff you don't want
anyway, regardless of how careful you are in constructing it, so you
typically need to postprocess anyway. So why bother to have all the code
and complexity of trying to do the automatic query construction?
Application developers then don't bother to use the complex query
language, so you end up having this substantial chunk of code in the
protocol processing that isn't used most of the time.
 
  
It is much easier to just ask for the available information, then do 
the processing on the client. I can't see the amount of information 
on handover services being so large that it would be unreasonable to 
send over the wireless link, especially given the trend toward 
increased bandwidth.
 
      
I actually mean "using complex query semantics" not "full text". 
Systems
with complex query semantics in the network haven't been very 
successful in the network information services area. For example, 
DNS has very simple query semantics. LDAP has very complex query 
semantics. People prefer DNS.
Query semantics is naturally not the only reason why they prefer 
DNS, of course, but having complex query semantics has not proved 
such a compelling attraction to motivate people to use LDAP for 
directory services instead of DNS (though LDAP was for a time 
considered to be a possible successor to DNS). There are other 
examples I could cite, and I don't think we need to get into a 
debate here about this particular example. For this reason, I 
believe that having a simple query semantics, using keywords or the
          
 
  
like, is a better solution than complex queries.
          
I believe a solution depends on the detailed requirements on the 
service provided by it, not directly on the area the service belongs
        
 
  
to.
 
        
I'm not sure I understand your point. What do you mean by "the area 
the service belongs"?
      
I mean the area of network information services.
 
BTW, I think this kind of discussion should be done in 802.21 where 
Information Service for heterogenious handovers is being defined.
 
    
 
No, it needs to be done here too. You're claiming that you want an XML
protocol with complex query language. I disagree, based on my experience
with SLP and LDAP, that this is really any value in a system-level
application like network information services. Regardless of what 802.21
wants, we need something that provides network information for FMIP, and
if we are going to try to get the two applications to work together, we
need to come up with a protocol that satisfies both.
 
Anybody else have an opinion?
 
            jak 
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
Mipshop mailing list
Mipshop@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mipshop
 
_______________________________________________
Mipshop mailing list
Mipshop@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mipshop
 
_______________________________________________
Mipshop mailing list
Mipshop@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mipshop