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Re: [802SEC] FW: [87all] Registration for IETF 87 in Berlin has re-opened

 the IEEE-SA Standards Board Operations Manual states:
5.3.14 Tax liability
The IEEE is a non-profit organization, incorporated in New York State,
USA. IEEE holds standards meetings throughout the world, and the legal
and tax requirements can vary greatly for each site. In the United
States, the IEEE is exempt from paying income taxes and is also exempt
from paying sales taxes on purchases in some states. Some states
require sales taxes to be collected on-site for sales of books and
other items. Order taking can be done without consideration of sales
Outside of the USA, there are other sales taxes that may be required
to be collected at IEEE Standards meetings for on-site sales, such as
Value Added Tax (VAT) and the Goods & Services Tax (GST) in Canada. It
may be required to collect such taxes on meeting fees. There are also
exemptions from paying VAT and GST and the rules are unique by
country. In most countries, but not all, the IEEE is exempt from
paying income taxes.
Because the laws and requirements of each country, state and province
vary, it is very important that each IEEE Standards Sponsor committee
contact the IEEE Tax Compliance Office ( to find
out the specific legal and tax requirements to operate at their site.
This must be done very early in the planning stages of the conference;
if planned properly, large savings may result.
Financial support by industry of IEEE-SA Standards meetings and events
is acceptable. All such support shall not violate the not-for-profit
status of the IEEE.

I propose that we not speculate, but rather just follow the stated procedure.

On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Pat Thaler <> wrote:
> Jon,
> I hope that that is still correct. The IETF email implied that there was a VAT rule change that caused the problem so the rules may not be the same as when the earlier research was done.
> There is some further discussion on this on the IETF list. One person has pointed out that it is a Value Added Tax and shouldn't apply to the portion of the registration fees that is being used to pay for things that already have VAT included - e.g. meeting room and catering fees.
> Regards,
> Pat
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [] On Behalf Of Jon Rosdahl
> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:57 AM
> To: Pat Thaler
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] FW: [87all] Registration for IETF 87 in Berlin has re-opened
> Pat,
>    It is my understanding that the IEEE may have already researched
> this and found that there is a legal distiction between a "Conference"
> and a "Standards Meeting".
> A "Conference" is where folks come to get trained and are sold stuff
> (products/information etc).
> A "Standards Meeting" is where the primary objective is to make
> decisions.  Nothing is being sold or bartered.  It is the members of
> the group that are coming together.
> This distinction is why the Standards meetings in the past were deemed
> exempt from the VAT taxes on our meeting fees. and may be one of the
> main benefits of not allowing Commercialization during our meetings.
> I hope that we can find the proper documentation history/email trail
> that shows as a
> Non-Profit holding a Standards Meeting that we are still not subject
> to the VAT fees.
> Jon
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Pat Thaler <> wrote:
>> FYI - as this is a topic we may need to consider for future meetings in Europe.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [] On Behalf Of The IAOC
>> Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 10:58 AM
>> To:
>> Cc: Bob Hinden
>> Subject: [87all] Registration for IETF 87 in Berlin has re-opened
>> Registration for IETF 87 in Berlin has re-opened.
>> Registration was suspended after discussions with tax specialists and attorneys convinced
>> us that that the rules had changed in the EU and Germany with regard to the impact of the
>> Value Added Tax (VAT) on registration fees.
>> There is an EU requirement to impose the country's Value Added Tax to registration fees
>> where the meeting is held.  Accordingly, Germany's 19% VAT has to be collected and paid
>> over to the German tax authorities.
>> The IAOC had to decide whether to change the registration fee to add the tax to it, or
>> whether to keep the fee in place for the meeting and state that the VAT was included in
>> the fee, which action would result in a registration revenue shortfall greater than
>> $100,000 USD. After discussions with the Internet Society the IAOC has decided not to change
>> the total registration fee for IETF87 because of the complexity of dealing with those who
>> have already paid, and those who had budgeted assuming a total fee of $650.  ISOC has agreed
>> to cover any resulting yearly budget shortfall resulting from including the VAT in the IETF87
>> registration fee.  We thank the Internet Society for this support.
>> You will notice a change in your final receipt for the meeting,  It will include VAT information
>> and a VAT identification number.  It is expected that final receipts will become available in the
>> next two weeks.  You or your employer may qualify to recover the VAT.  We will be providing
>> guidance on this matter in the next two weeks.
>> We and the Internet Society have learned that VAT is a very complex matter and that expertise
>> is required on a going forward basis.  To that end the Internet Society is considering proposals
>> to retain a European tax specialist firm to assist us and them in the future.  We will be
>> investigating similar issues in other regions.
>> This decision to not change the fee is for this meeting only. The 2014 Budget will take the VAT
>> into consideration when the fees are set for meetings in Europe next year and beyond.
>> We look forward to seeing you in Berlin.
>> Bob Hinden
>> IAOC Chair
>> _______________________________________________
>> 87all mailing list
>> ----------
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