Re: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
On 1/13/2009 12:30 PM, TSG wrote:
> James Gilb wrote:
>> All
>>
>> I agree with Tony here. If we use it at all, it is only for limited
>> topics which require specific expertise.
>>
> No... If you allow remote attendance then you allow remote attendance.
> That's not something that you get to erect artificial barriers to.
I agree that remote attendance is attendance. I do not support allowing
calling in to a face-to-face meeting as a means of attending the
meeting. But what I believe James intended, and what I would support, is
a situation that would not count as or be at all the same as attendance.
I see two possibilities that could be allowed:
As Tony has mentioned, 802.1 has allowed experts to call in to discuss a
very specific and limited topic. When this has occurred, the person
calling in is not in attendance in any sense.
Similarly, 802.17 has had a few conference calls in the distant past,
but such phone call meetings do not count as sessions for which one
would get attendance credit. We treated such conference calls as ad hoc
meetings.
>> I also think that the barrier of travel time and expense is a measure of
>> the importance the people have for developing the standard. At the very
>> least, all participants should pay the entire meeting fee. The cost of
>> a wireless interim fee is normally less than $700. The cost of the time
>> that a person spends working on the standards development far exceeds
>> this modest expense.
>>
> So then you are saying that people MUST write a check in the form of
> participation coverage. That's fine for company's but what about
> individuals or is the IEEE saying that individual participation in 802
> is prohibited and all must represent some formal entity.
Companies do not participate in 802. 802 participation is only by
individuals.
>
> Nice...
>> James Gilb
>>
>> Tony Jeffree wrote:
>>
>>> Buzz -
>>>
>>> I agree - this is a slippery slope. In .1 we have very occasionally
>>> allowed dial in access
>>> where there was a specific topic that needed expert input - the most
>>> recent example being
>>> MIB discussions - but we have done it only for that topic, not as a
>>> blanket facility for
>>> the meeting. I believe it really only works under very limited
>>> circumstances - namely,
>>> where the caller(s)-in are the primary focus of the discussion,
>>> rather than where people
>>> are calling in just for regular participation.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Tony
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
>>> [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Rigsbee, Everett O
>>> Sent: 10 January 2009 19:39
>>> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
>>>
>>> Hi Mat, Again I urge you to be careful of the slippery slope here.
>>> Our
>>> rules don't actually prohibit setting off bombs in the meeting rooms or
>>> pantsing the WG Chairs but that doesn't mean we necessarily want to
>>> allow that to go on either. Just because we can do something doesn't
>>> mean we should.
>>> Virtual attendance is very hard to regulate and ensure that people are
>>> tuned in to what is going on, and is subject to abuse by those who wish
>>> to employ dominance within the WG. So I would suggest that you are
>>> correct that it may be likely to make most sense in the context of an
>>> ECSG.
>>>
>>> Thanx, Buzz
>>> Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
>>> Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
>>> Boeing IT
>>> PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
>>> Seattle, WA 98124-2207
>>> Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
>>> Cell: (425) 417-1022
>>> everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
>>> [mailto:matthew.sherman@baesystems.com] Sent: Saturday, January 10,
>>> 2009 11:17 AM
>>> To: Rigsbee, Everett O; STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Cc: dawns@facetoface-events.com; lisa@facetoface-events.com;
>>> p.nikolich@ieee.org; jhawkins@nortel.com
>>> Subject: RE: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
>>>
>>> Buzz / All,
>>>
>>> Please see responses in line below.
>>>
>>> Matthew Sherman, Ph.D. Engineering Fellow BAE Systems - Network
>>> Systems (NS) Office: +1 973.633.6344 Cell: +1 973.229.9520 email:
>>> matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rigsbee, Everett O [mailto:everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com] Sent:
>>> Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:00 PM
>>> To: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA); STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Cc: dawns@facetoface-events.com; lisa@facetoface-events.com;
>>> p.nikolich@ieee.org; jhawkins@nortel.com
>>> Subject: RE: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
>>>
>>>
>>> Gee Mat, Is it at least possible to actually see the proposed
>>> hypothesis and metrics ???
>>>
>>> **** Mat - Yes. They are still being formalized, but will be available
>>> shortly
>>>
>>> Forgive me if I am somewhat skeptical of the value of this but I have
>>> been talking with my counterpart at the IETF, who have been doing this
>>> kind facility for years and they've cutback on it substantially because
>>> they found that it was getting more & more expensive and hard to
>>> support, and that it was seriously hurting their attendance at some key
>>> forums. It also make it almost impossible to track actual
>>> participation: something we still seem to think is important.
>>>
>>> **** Mat - Yes these are key issues. There is both good and bad to be
>>> discussed. In person attendance may go down, but that may mean that it
>>> costs less to develop standards. If it is the same quality standard,
>>> isn't that a good thing?
>>>
>>> Maybe it's OK for start-up events such as ECSGs where broadest
>>> participation is a key ingredient, but I would be careful about
>>> attempting to make it an integral part of our ongoing Working Group
>>> sessions because of the perceived negative impact on actual
>>> participation.
>>> **** Mat - This is just an experiment. The idea is to bring the
>>> data to
>>> the EC for consideration if this should be generally permitted at all.
>>> If permitted, I think it would be on be on a WG by WG basis. Note that
>>> I consider the ECSG unique in that it has participation from across
>>> many
>>> working groups (some of which may not normally participate in the
>>> Wireless Interim), and outside organizations who don't normally attend
>>> 802. In addition some participants have lost their sponsorship (or
>>> perhaps never had any) and are looking for lower cost means to
>>> participate. Since the ECSG has no membership (whoever shows up can
>>> vote) and we already take votes on teleconferences, it is probably an
>>> ideal vehicle to run an experiment with. Note that letter ballots for
>>> SG are prohibited in the rules, so the only way we can vote between
>>> meetings in on teleconferences.
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe in these times of severe economic stress it makes sense for us to
>>> explore some other avenues for WG participation but I would suggest
>>> that
>>> we use a metric that such participation is made reliably trackable and
>>> that it require registration & fees that at least covers the costs of
>>> any such special provisions. It would be patently unfair to saddle the
>>> already burdened in-person attendees with the cost of allowing access
>>> for electronic attendees.
>>> **** Mat - Agree 100%!!!!!
>>>
>>> We need to discuss and think through these kind of changes carefully
>>> before making any significant changes in our policies and procedures.
>>>
>>> **** Mat - Strangely enough, there are no rules expressly prohibiting
>>> this today. Traditionally (with reason) it is not permitted by IEEE
>>> 802, but that fact is not written down. I agree no changes in the P&P
>>> should be made one way or the other without careful consideration.
>>> Thanks for the inputs!
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanx, Buzz
>>> Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
>>> Executive Secretary, IEEE-802 LMSC
>>> Boeing IT
>>> PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
>>> Seattle, WA 98124-2207
>>> Ph: (425) 373-8960 Fx: (425) 865-7960
>>> Cell: (425) 417-1022
>>> everett.o.rigsbee@boeing.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)
>>> [mailto:matthew.sherman@BAESYSTEMS.COM] Sent: Saturday, January 10,
>>> 2009 9:54 AM
>>> To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>>> Subject: [802SEC] Electronic Participation in Interim Meetings
>>>
>>> EC Members,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have received requests from TV Whitespace ECSG members to allow
>>> electronic participation (teleconference / Webex) for the ECSG meetings
>>> at the upcoming Wireless Interim in LA. I have discussed this with the
>>> IEEE 802.11 Chair (Bruce) who has no objection, and made sure that
>>> appropriate facilities are available. I checked with the IEEE 802
>>> chair
>>> (Paul) who said he would permit electronic participation for the
>>> ECSG at
>>> the interim if it was conducted as an 'Experiment' (with hypothesis and
>>> metrics) to see if it adds clear value to the standards process.
>>> Accordingly we have formulated a hypothesis and metrics and plan to
>>> conduct three two hour meetings at the wireless interim that include
>>> electronic participation, and will conduct straw polls at the end of
>>> the
>>> session to see if the metrics support our hypothesis. We will make
>>> the
>>> results of this experiment available to the EC at the March session,
>>> along with other planned outputs from the ECSG.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you have any questions about this, please feel free to contact me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Matthew Sherman Chair, IEEE802 Whitespace ECSG BAE Systems -
>>> Network Systems (NS) Office: +1 973.633.6344 Cell: +1 973.229.9520
>>> email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
>>> <mailto:matthew.sherman@baesystems.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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